Brexit vote: The breakdown

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

mrginge wrote: »

They expect to be treated fairly Hamish.

They live in a meritocracy.

There is nothing fairer....

Jason74

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

But what on earth do people expect?

Life is on the whole one giant meritocracy - the vast majority of successful people are successful simply because they work hard and invested time, effort and sacrifice in getting to the place they are today.

If they needed qualifications they got them.

If they needed to move for career opportunities they moved.

If they needed to invest extra time, energy and effort in the workplace to get promoted they did so.

Successful people by and large earned their success and paid for it with blood sweat and tears.

And the corollary of that is the vast majority of people who are relatively ordinary, or even distinctly unsuccessful, deserve exactly what they get out of life given that most things in this world are achieved on merit.

Nobody is owed a living - and even less is anyone owed a good living - these things have to be earned... and the harsh but true reality is that most people have only themseleves to thank or blame for their outcomes in life.

I would absolutely love for this to be true, but the reality is that it really isn't. Now of course, all other things being equal, people who are smarter and / or harder working will gain better outcomes than those who are not, but we are a long way from a society where all have an equal shot of success. Some have better access to education than others, some have better (and more stable) housing than others, some grow up in more stable families than others. All of these things have a big impact, and are at least as important in terms of outcomes as someones effort and intellect.

To say that someone brought up in an unstable, overcrowded home and who goes to a poor quality school has the same opportunity to succeed as someone who grows up in a stable home, has their own room to do homework in, and attends a good school is simply wrong. And those inequalities exist all over the place.

The reality is that while the cream will always rise wherever it starts from (and conversely, there are a few people who will manage to screw up regardless of the opportunities they are given . . .I think a few might post here actually :rotfl:), for most of us who fall in the middle, the circumstances we grew up in and the opportunities presented to us are at least as important to where we end up as our own efforts and abilities. It's why the most reliable indicator of a child's future income remains the income of their parents.

And actually, while I agree that nobody is "owed a living", there should be a certain dignity provided to all who are willing to go out and work, and that should be true even in the most menial job. That doesn't mean a roadsweeper should be driving a new BMW, but that roadsweeper should have access to a home with security of tenure (whether owned or rented), to pay the bills and have a little left over to have some pleasures in life. The social contract that should provide that has broken down in recent decades, and we need to get it back

I actually think that the mistaken belief that some people have that those at the bottom somehow deserve to be there, and that if they just worked a bit harder all would be well, is a major part of the problem. And it's why so many in that group (and like I say, I actually agree with you that it probably wont turn out well for them) voted leave.

That idea that their problems are all their own fault is what the establishment has been telling them for 30 years or more, and frankly its !!!!!!!!. And the people working their behinds off in those circumstances know that it's !!!!!!!!. So they took the one chance they felt they had to kick back at the system.

That doesn't defend the racists who voted out, and I don't deny that there are some people who will look to find excuses for their own failings. That's just human nature. But that doesn't change the fact that we have a system that is failing many of our citizens. And that is the thing we need to sort out if we are going to avoid a "day of reckoning" . Fortunately (and to my surprise), we have a Prime Minister who is at least making noises that suggest that she gets it. I just hope that she carries that through into some actual policies that reflect that view.

mrginge

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

They live in a meritocracy.

There is nothing fairer....

If you believe that you are mentally unstable

Thrugelmir

mwpt wrote: »

The IMF does this in the form of austerity conditions. We all pay toward the IMF and we expect that when they get involved the money is not going down a black hole and that reforms are made by the country in question.

This IMF.

PARIS — Christine Lagarde, the managing director of the International Monetary Fund, went on trial in Paris on Monday, facing criminal charges that when she was France’s finance minister, her negligence resulted in the misuse of hundreds of millions of euros in public money.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/12/business/international/christine-lagarde-trial-imf-france.html?_r=0

cogito

mwpt wrote: »

Creditors always impose conditions on money being lent. Either in the simple case of a coupon on the bond or in the more complex cases where a country requires a bailout. The IMF does this in the form of austerity conditions. We all pay toward the IMF and we expect that when they get involved the money is not going down a black hole and that reforms are made by the country in question.

This is what is going on in Greece, except the organisation doing the bailout is the ECB rather than the IMF. But the same thing applies.

If the Greeks were not happy with the conditions, they should have rejected them and rolled the dice with a default. Why is it the EU's fault that the Greek government chose to accept their terms?

The Greek people rejected the EU's conditions in a referendum on the advice of their government. The government then disregarded the result of the referendum (funny how often this happens in the EU) and accepted worse terms than were previously on offer.

mwpt

cogito wrote: »

The Greek people rejected the EU's conditions in a referendum on the advice of their government. The government then disregarded the result of the referendum (funny how often this happens in the EU) and accepted worse terms than were previously on offer.

And so you should blame the EU.

:facepalm:

mwpt

Jason74 wrote: »

I would absolutely love for this to be true, but the reality is that it really isn't. Now of course, all other things being equal, people who are smarter and / or harder working will gain better outcomes than those who are not, but we are a long way from a society where all have an equal shot of success. Some have better access to education than others, some have better (and more stable) housing than others, some grow up in more stable families than others. All of these things have a big impact, and are at least as important in terms of outcomes as someones effort and intellect.

To say that someone brought up in an unstable, overcrowded home and who goes to a poor quality school has the same opportunity to succeed as someone who grows up in a stable home, has their own room to do homework in, and attends a good school is simply wrong. And those inequalities exist all over the place.

Great post. I've been looking for a particular illustration or comic strip which I once saw, makes the point rather nicely. I don't suppose you know the one I'm talking about.

(This isn't to say I disagree with Hamish entirely, I agree that the vote won't have the intended consequences some voters wanted)

EDIT: Found the illustration I was looking for

http://thewireless.co.nz/articles/the-pencilsword-on-a-plate

kabayiri

CLAPTON wrote: »

...
what is your solution ? massive new borrowing, a few million immigrants to produce the wealth we need?
Increase in population does mean our housing is more crowded, it does mean access to NHS is harder, it does mean the trains and roads are more crowded.

We have had a good few million migrants in the last decade or so, since Poland and others joined fully.

I am frequently told by Hamish this bring in much needed billions to spend on the core things we need.

Yet...I don't see it.

In this same period we have borrowed to fund NHS via expensive PFI. There has been little major transport infrastructure development outside London. There hasn't been a year where the number of houses built has kept up with demand.

So why on earth should I believe that bringing in yet more millions will change anything?

It sounds like a desperate sales pitch to me.

kabayiri

mwpt wrote: »

And so you should blame the EU.

:facepalm:

It is the other EU countries who hold all the cards here.

What can Greece do other than suffer continued contraction of her economy?

I'd be genuinely interested to know. You believe this club is beneficial, so explain to me how it turns Greece around.

Without levers such as a currency to devalue, just what does she do?

ruggedtoast

Life clearly isn't a meritocracy and hard work and ingenuity don't always get you to the top. As George Montbiot points out, if it did then every African woman would be a millionaire.

As a Left winger I find it a great shame that all those people who feel themselves to be struggling financially blame Europe, rather than the Tories, when the European versions of them aren't struggling at all.

It defies belief how many people local to me who are the epitome of the battling low wagers, vote Tory at every possible opportunity. Then they wail in disbelief at the inevitable cuts in services, housing, and in work benefits that come from Tory governments, then vote Tory again the next chance they get.

Every single time. Its this weird victim mentality the Right seems to be able to stoke in people who will blame their problems on everything other than how they keep voting.