Brexit vote: The breakdown

wotsthat

Conrad wrote: »

The EU and bodies such as the UN, look increasingly dated, cumbersome and amount to little more than talking shops, squabbling away with little delivery.

More good news for the UK economy today. How exactly has the squabbling shop been holding us back in the last couple of years?

CLAPTON

wotsthat wrote: »

More good news for the UK economy today. How exactly has the squabbling shop been holding us back in the last couple of years?

I've just been reading on these very boards
-unemplyment is really much higher that the figures, as they are fiddled
-all the jobs created are 'crap'
-all the jobs are 0 hours without security
-OBR/IFS have told us that real wages haven't increased since 2010
-productivity is very low
-but on the positive side, house prices and rents are doing OK
-and the population is higher now

Herzlos

CLAPTON wrote: »

I've just been reading on these very boards
-unemplyment is really much higher that the figures, as they are fiddled

Massaged, just like all other statistics. It's in the governments favour to keep the figure low, so it it low.

-all the jobs created are 'crap'

No-one said that.

-all the jobs are 0 hours without security

Or that.

-OBR/IFS have told us that real wages haven't increased since 2010

Sounds about right

-productivity is very low

Has that changed?

Conrad

wotsthat wrote: »

More good news for the UK economy today. How exactly has the squabbling shop been holding us back in the last couple of years?

We have many issues that can be best addressed by ourselves without an additional layer of Governance and a daily £28 million club fee (trade will be just as profitable without this fee as you will see).


Unleash the people and enterprise, address the trade defecit, create better jobs and thus a better society where more of us feel we have a stake and a decent journey ahead (not a mass of non jobs based on mass imports and debt to mask the production gap).


Brexit is the catalyst.

Herzlos

Conrad wrote: »

Unleash the people and enterprise

You mean take away workers rights?

address the trade defecit

How?

create better jobs

How?

and thus a better society where more of us feel we have a stake and a decent journey ahead (not a mass of non jobs based on mass imports and debt to mask the production gap)

I'm not sure better jobs alone helps that, but I approve of the idea.

Brexit is the catalyst.

It definitely is. I still maintain we could do better without it though.

wotsthat

Conrad wrote: »

We have many issues that can be best addressed by ourselves without an additional layer of Governance and a daily £28 million club fee (trade will be just as profitable without this fee as you will see).

Unleash the people and enterprise, address the trade defecit, create better jobs and thus a better society where more of us feel we have a stake and a decent journey ahead (not a mass of non jobs based on mass imports and debt to mask the production gap).

Brexit is the catalyst.

Yet, on a daily basis people who are still rather angry about 'Project Fear' prove the UK is doing absolutely fine within the EU (I'd like to think they were doing this with an ironical smile but I fear they haven't spotted it).

£28m is undoubtedly an awful lot of money but the government seem to be pledging to match current EU spending in the UK and, on top of that, an awful lot will be spent to duplicate governance where we share sovereignty. Or we might still be paying a fee to share sovereignty but calling it some thing different.

Your third paragraph sounds like a collection of soundbites but I'd suggest all of these visions are 100% within the gift of the government and the population.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Jason74 wrote: »

people who are smarter and / or harder working will gain better outcomes than those who are not,

Yes they will.

but we are a long way from a society where all have an equal shot of success. Some have better access to education than others, some have better (and more stable) housing than others, some grow up in more stable families than others. All of these things have a big impact, and are at least as important in terms of outcomes as someones effort and intellect.

Sorry but that's just not right.

The primary determinant of success in life is the effort and ability any individual puts into it.

I don't dispute that some people have it easier than others - usually as a direct result of the effort their family put into being successful - but it's patently nonsense to suggest that our society does not support progression of those who work hard and have talent in the vast majority of cases - no matter what the starting point.

To say that someone brought up in an unstable, overcrowded home and who goes to a poor quality school has the same opportunity to succeed as someone who grows up in a stable home, has their own room to do homework in, and attends a good school is simply wrong. And those inequalities exist all over the place.

To say that inequalities prevent people being successful is absolutely absurd though - if they did then Sir Alan Sugar (grew up in a council house) wouldn't be a millionaire - Rita Ora (daughter of refugee asylum seekers) wouldn't be a chart topper - and JK Rowling (penniless divorced single mum on benefits) wouldn't be the highest selling children's author of all time.

Talent and drive is what matters above all else.

the cream will always rise wherever it starts from

True.

and conversely, there are a few people who will manage to screw up regardless of the opportunities they are given

Also true.

for most of us who fall in the middle, the circumstances we grew up in and the opportunities presented to us are at least as important to where we end up as our own efforts and abilities. It's why the most reliable indicator of a child's future income remains the income of their parents.

I don't disagree that if you've had a bad upbringing you're less likely to be successful... If you're less educated you're less likely to be successful.... Or that if you're less intelligent you're less likely to be successful.... And of course that if you've had poor role models, have low expectations, and low motivation to succeed... well... obviously... you're less likely to be successful.

Where we may disagree however is that I fundamentally believe everyone in British society has the opportunity to better themselves through education, hard work, and just giving things a go.... And the only person at fault for not doing so is the individual concerned.

And actually, while I agree that nobody is "owed a living", there should be a certain dignity provided to all who are willing to go out and work, and that should be true even in the most menial job. That doesn't mean a roadsweeper should be driving a new BMW, but that roadsweeper should have access to a home with security of tenure (whether owned or rented), to pay the bills and have a little left over to have some pleasures in life. The social contract that should provide that has broken down in recent decades, and we need to get it back

The world needs low paid street sweepers and toilet cleaners just as it needs dynamic tech entrepreneurs and professors of nuclear physics.

But nobody has or should have the right to demand a good job, a home with security of tenure, or enough money left over to enjoy the pleasures of life, simply because they were born.

These things must be earned, and in this society anyone with a bit of gumption and a desire to succeed is perfectly capable of doing so....

I actually think that the mistaken belief that some people have that those at the bottom somehow deserve to be there, and that if they just worked a bit harder all would be well, is a major part of the problem.

Except of course - for the vast majority of people it's simply the truth.

It's of course not what they want to believe - far easier to blame it all on others - but it's simply untrue that the fault lies with anyone else except the individual concerned 99 times out of 100.

And it's why so many in that group (and like I say, I actually agree with you that it probably wont turn out well for them) voted leave.

Which brings us neatly back to.... Turkeys, Christmas, Votes, etc

That idea that their problems are all their own fault is what the establishment has been telling them for 30 years or more,

And for 30 years or more it's been true...

They don't like hearing it - but it's still true.

So they took the one chance they felt they had to kick back at the system.

And scored a massive own goal instead.

Only confirming once again that their own bad choices are overwhelmingly the main cause of their lack of prosperity.

we have a system that is failing many of our citizens.

No...

We have many citizens failing to utilise the opportunities available to them within the system - but that's their fault... not the systems.

And that is the thing we need to sort out if we are going to avoid a "day of reckoning"

.

The only way to sort out what is actually wrong with society is for millions of individual people to get off their behinds and stop expecting society to do everything for them.

If we're to genuinely avoid a 'day of reckoning' a properly hard line will have to be taken with making skiving, dole blagging, benefits chasing, etc, as socially unacceptable as drink driving.

we have a Prime Minister who is at least making noises that suggest that she gets it. I just hope that she carries that through into some actual policies that reflect that view.

Of course she won't...

And it doesn't matter if she wants to or not - she can't - because the reality is this is an increasingly competitive and globalised world and the economics of an ageing society just don't allow for us to keep paying people not to work, to keep paying people to stay in places without enough work, or to keep paying people to sit at home and blaming others for their own failings.

Thrugelmir

wotsthat wrote: »

More good news for the UK economy today. How exactly has the squabbling shop been holding us back in the last couple of years?

Unemployment is simply one measure. Quality of jobs and what people earn is far more important at ground level. That's where Trump won the battleground. Simply telling people that they should be happy to have a low paid job isn't enough anymore. People aspire. Well at least they used to.

mwpt

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Unemployment is simply one measure. Quality of jobs and what people earn is far more important at ground level. That's where Trump won the battleground. Simply telling people that they should be happy to have a low paid job isn't enough anymore. People aspire. Well at least they used to.

Direct question. In the context of everything going on in the world, do you think brexit is going to solve this particular problem?

I don't.

CLAPTON

mwpt wrote: »

Direct question. In the context of everything going on in the world, do you think brexit is going to solve this particular problem?

I don't.

yes or at least a move in the right direction
at the moment there is little incentive for many businesses to innovate or improve productivity as they know they have an indefinite supply of cheap labour.
there is no incentive to train young Uk people if they can get better qualified people from abroad.