Brexit vote: The breakdown

The_Last_Username

CLAPTON wrote: »

at the moment there is little incentive for many businesses to innovate or improve productivity as they know they have an indefinite supply of cheap labour.
there is no incentive to train young Uk people if they can get better qualified people from abroad.

Sadly that is absolutely correct.

Our medical professions are great examples; we as a nation have not trained enough doctors, dentists, pharmacists, physiotherapists, nurses etc. etc. etc. for decades.
Rather than train the above in the numbers we need - which would also provide better-paid employment than many alternatives btw -
we raid the skill-sets of many other countries.

The same goes with apprenticeships which are now almost non-existent.
Rather that training our own over years, we import.

Roll on the day that - as a nation - we realise the benefits of training our own.

Thrugelmir

mwpt wrote: »

Direct question. In the context of everything going on in the world, do you think brexit is going to solve this particular problem?

I don't.

No I don't. I don't see Brexit solving a large number of issues that exist. Membership of the EU hasn't resolved the issues either. Change is going to have to be fundamental. Grass roots up.

Jason74

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Yes they will.



Sorry but that's just not right.

The primary determinant of success in life is the effort and ability any individual puts into it.

I don't dispute that some people have it easier than others - usually as a direct result of the effort their family put into being successful - but it's patently nonsense to suggest that our society does not support progression of those who work hard and have talent in the vast majority of cases - no matter what the starting point.



To say that inequalities prevent people being successful is absolutely absurd though - if they did then Sir Alan Sugar (grew up in a council house) wouldn't be a millionaire - Rita Ora (daughter of refugee asylum seekers) wouldn't be a chart topper - and JK Rowling (penniless divorced single mum on benefits) wouldn't be the highest selling children's author of all time.

Talent and drive is what matters above all else.

Etc.......

.

The scary thing is, that you actually believe this. As I say, the absolute cream will always rise, and the examples you cite demonstrate nothing more than the truth of that reality.

Most of us however are not Alan Sugar or JK Rowling. Likewise, most of us fortunately are not the kind of train wrecks who will destroy any opportunity we get. And so for most of us, the opportunities we are given is a huge factor in where we end up. To underestimate that, and to deny that the opportunities that are available to people vary massively is to simply deny reality.

And a lot of people who have been dealt a bum hand in that opportunity lottery have simply had enough. The Brexit vote was an attempt to raise that frustration peacefully. But what has come from many more fortunate people is a sneering arrogance along the lines of "these people are stupid, and look at the stupid vote they've cast that just proves that they're stupid".

That view ignores the very real struggles that many people face , and puts the blame for their struggles at the door of the individual when there are other factors often at least as important at play too. The cartoon that MWPT posted puts it beautifully, and accurately reflects the reality that many people I work with face.

The problem with dismissing peaceful protest, is that there is a very real risk that at some point, that frustration will boil over into something more dangerous. If that happens, the people who have ignored the very real struggles of others will bare a great deal of responsibility for whatever takes place, not that they will ever acknowledge (or even understand) that.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Jason74 wrote: »

The scary thing is, that you actually believe this.

I believe it because I see it every day.

I work with people from all backgrounds imaginable - of my senior management colleagues most are from very ordinary backgrounds, many are working class and from rough estates, and very few started their careers with high levels of educational achievement - almost all worked their way up from the very bottom.

I see lots of people working their way up from minimum wage entry level positions to relatively senior management positions in 10 or 15 years of hard graft and willingness to learn.

And I see plenty of others who make no effort to progress and stay at those entry level positions for the long term not because they don't have the ability - but because they don't have the work ethic and drive to progress.

And you know what? That's their choice.... Nobody else's.

for most of us, the opportunities we are given is a huge factor in where we end up. To underestimate that, and to deny that the opportunities that are available to people vary massively is to simply deny reality.

Most of us who succeed know full well we were given nothing - we took opportunities when they arose - and earned our progression with hard graft and determination.

And a lot of people who have been dealt a bum hand in that opportunity lottery have simply had enough.

Och away....

The vast majority of people who do not succeed in life simply chose not to maximise the abundance of opportunities they were presented with.

I suspect you'd be shocked how often I see people in the workplace refuse to take on extra work responsibilities, refuse to take up the opportunity for additional development, refuse to invest their time in learning or advancing or progressing.

And every.... single.... time.... they are choosing to turn down an opportunity for progression that the "opportunity lottery" has given them.

The Brexit vote was an attempt to raise that frustration peacefully. But what has come from many more fortunate people is a sneering arrogance along the lines of "these people are stupid, and look at the stupid vote they've cast that just proves that they're stupid".

The Brexit vote was an attempt to bite the hand that feeds them.

The additional suffering they will now go through as a result of such a tantrum is entirely predictable - entirely inevitable - and entirely their own fault.

The problem with dismissing peaceful protest, is that there is a very real risk that at some point, that frustration will boil over into something more dangerous. If that happens, the people who have ignored the very real struggles of others will bare a great deal of responsibility for whatever takes place, not that they will ever acknowledge (or even understand) that.

Brexit is hardly 'peaceful protest' - more an act of pointless economic vandalism - but anyway...

Society cannot fix their problems - as most who do not succeed have chosen not to succeed - and the only person that can fix that problem is the one they see in the mirror.

It remains to be seen if politicians now discover the honesty to tell people that hard truth - my bet is not - they'll continue to blame it on 'the other'.

Crashy_Time

Crashy_Time

I see JK`s childhood home has a For Sale sign outside, how apt for the times we live in. You can just feel the dealers and pimps that must have roamed those mean streets eh?

mwpt

Crashy_Time wrote: »

I see JK`s childhood home has a For Sale sign outside, how apt for the times we live in. You can just feel the dealers and pimps that must have roamed those mean streets eh?

Wait, that is JK Rowlings childhood home? I thought she "came from nothing"?

mwpt

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Most of us who succeed know full well we were given nothing - we took opportunities when they arose - and earned our progression with hard graft and determination.

Hamish, I am successful in what I do. I have worked hard and not shirked to get where I am. But I cannot deny the opportunities I've had that may not have been available to someone else. I came from a poor family, in a poor country, but what I did have were parents who were big on discipline. I had to work since 15 years old, doing various things in the nearby factories to earn pocket money. But then through a small inheritance my first two years at university were paid for and after that I had my fees paid for by the University. I was lucky that I didn't get saddled with huge debt early in my life.

I got lucky in that I happened to arrive in my working career at the right time of the tech bubble. I got incredibly lucky that through a mix of heritage I was eligible for an EU passport which allowed me to move to Europe to progress my career.

But there are millions of people in my country of birth who didn't get those opportunities. The law of averages tells me that many of them will be as smart or as driven as I was, so why are they not where I am? They're still stuck in (real) poverty with very little chance to escape.

This isn't to say that people don't escape the poverty cycle, clearly some do, and obviously given selection bias, these will mostly be the driven ones who worked hard. You're not seeing the driven ones who worked hard that didn't succeed.

But the reality is that as a percentage, more people born into privilege "make it" in life than those not born into privilege. Surely you can see the common factor here and it isn't just hard work or desire?

Graham_Devon

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

But what on earth do people expect?

Life is on the whole one giant meritocracy - the vast majority of successful people are successful simply because they work hard and invested time, effort and sacrifice in getting to the place they are today.

If they needed qualifications they got them.

If they needed to move for career opportunities they moved.

If they needed to invest extra time, energy and effort in the workplace to get promoted they did so.

Successful people by and large earned their success and paid for it with blood sweat and tears.

And the corollary of that is the vast majority of people who are relatively ordinary, or even distinctly unsuccessful, deserve exactly what they get out of life given that most things in this world are achieved on merit.

Nobody is owed a living - and even less is anyone owed a good living - these things have to be earned... and the harsh but true reality is that most people have only themseleves to thank or blame for their outcomes in life.

Have to say Hamish, without getting into another brexit debate (putdown!) with you, what you have said above seems dubious at best.

There is a whole heap of academic research out there that suggests that those born into welathy families do better than those born into poorer families.

I see it all around me. I've grown up with it. I've seen people leave school with nothing and do nothing sitting in 4 bed houses by the time they are 25 and "working" in the family business. I've seen someone with no hope whatsoever be given 5 houses which is now his "job" between surfing and visiting the world.

I've also seen people put years into education, put their lives on hold while they work from the bottom....still at the bottom - and that's no reflection on them.

I've seen a neighbour go from having nothing and trying to get further turn into doing nothing and living very well thankyou very much. He would now seem the epitome of success as you have defined it (business owner, financially comfortable, nice home). But reality is simply a very large inheritance of a business which runs itself. I'm not knocking him, he worked bloody hard. But that work had no effect on what he now has.

And just as of yesterday, we had someone on the radio who doesn't work and instead devotes his life to being eco friendly and living off the land - all fine for him, because he lives off the royalties of christmas songs written by his grandparent!

In many walks of life people are where they are simply due to the lottery of what you are born into.

Relating this to one of your favourite discussions - immigrants. They are, it would appear, striving and doing all they can to better themselves. VERY few end up as financially successful. If this were the case you'd have to question why the absolute vast majority are in the service sector cleaning up after you.

mrginge

As usual with Hamish, if you're not slogging your guts out for 15 hours a day then you're a failure.

If you're happy where you are in life you're a failure.

If you don't get the opportunities that others do you're a failure.

If you make a lifestyle decision that limits your income you're a failure.

Money money money money money money money money money.