Brexit vote: The breakdown

[Deleted User]

mrginge wrote: »

Britain is clearly not going down the plug hole.

In that case it makes you wonder why the Brexiters seem to want to "make Britain great again".

A_Medium_Size_Jock

jack_pott wrote: »

In that case it makes you wonder why the Brexiters seem to want to "make Britain great again".

Again with derogatory name-calling.
Why is it that so many wishing to remain do this - and are so unpatriotic if not downright anti-British?
Yet you really never wonder why so many want to come to Britain?
Risk their lives to do so, in fact?

As has been said to you earlier, if you dislike Britain so much feel free to leave.
There's a very long queue waiting to take your place.
With an attitude like yours, I for one would rather do without you and your ilk.

mrginge

jack_pott wrote: »

In that case it makes you wonder why the Brexiters seem to want to "make Britain great again".

You highlight perfectly the inherent difference between the two positions.

The complete negativity of 'Britain going down the plug hole'. All about how bad things are going to be. Totally pessimistic.

'Make Britain great again'. Forward looking and positive. All about how much better we can aim to be.

The split between leave and remain has evaporated now. Today's split is between the progressive and the regressive.

Plenty of remain voters are forward thinking and progressive. They may not like where we are but they still want things to work. Even the debate between soft or hard brexit is an important step towards consensus and compromise. I've heard plenty of comments from ardent remain voters in public and from parliament that accept that things need to change.

But then we have the few remaining miserable saddos who have nothing to say except how awful things are going to be or how that bus was one big lie. People like that have nothing to offer the debate, nothing to contribute. They are spoilt babies who would rather see the misery they bleat on about than face the fact that they were on the wrong side of a decision.

If you want to sit crying into your cornflakes with those kind of people then crack on. The rest of us will get on and make things work.

bugslet

Jason74 wrote: »

But I get why they did it. When you feel you have nothing, and that nobody who has any power to address the situation has any interest in doing so, it's not a great place. I think to dismiss people using what they felt was the only opportunity to make their voice heard as "Turkeys voting for Christmas" is more than a little unafir, even if I agree that there is a high risk that the decision to do so will backfire.

Mostly wanted to say cracking post Jason74. In European Transport the EU has been disastrous for the UK sector, so why most people would expect someone to vote for something that has done them harm is a mystery.

kabayiri wrote: »

Now we have a mass abundance of cheap migrant labour right here, why would you seek to invest in automation? It's the same logic.

Does anyone buy car wash machines for petrol stations any more? It all seems to be hand wash staffed by migrants.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

mayonnaise wrote: »

Poll suggests public will not accept a Brexit that leaves them worse off



Turkeys that voted for Christmas are not really looking forward to Christmas.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/10/poll-public-will-not-accept-brexit-worse-off-tim-farron-ukip-lib-dem-yougov

Which is bizarre - as of course most of the commentators on here repeatedly tell us people knew full well Brexit would make them worse off and chose to vote for it anyway....

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Jason74 wrote: »

The big thing that comes across for me is just the extent to which many people who are just about getting by (or worse) are frustrated with their circumstances.

That grind breeds a simmering resentment and frustration that simply can't be grasped unless you see it close up.

But what on earth do people expect?

Life is on the whole one giant meritocracy - the vast majority of successful people are successful simply because they work hard and invested time, effort and sacrifice in getting to the place they are today.

If they needed qualifications they got them.

If they needed to move for career opportunities they moved.

If they needed to invest extra time, energy and effort in the workplace to get promoted they did so.

Successful people by and large earned their success and paid for it with blood sweat and tears.

And the corollary of that is the vast majority of people who are relatively ordinary, or even distinctly unsuccessful, deserve exactly what they get out of life given that most things in this world are achieved on merit.

Nobody is owed a living - and even less is anyone owed a good living - these things have to be earned... and the harsh but true reality is that most people have only themseleves to thank or blame for their outcomes in life.

Now in one sense I think Hamish is right. I don't think coming out of the EU will do much to help many of those people, and there are a number of ways where it might make things worse.

But I get why they did it.

It will make things much, much worse for most of these people, but that isn't the truly dangerous part of all this.

The danger is that by humouring this entirely fallacious notion of victimisation, of blaming the other, and indulging the politics of envy... Society has only deferred the inevitable realisation that will have to come one day.

And that realisation is that it's not the fault of bankers, or politicians, or immigrants, or the establishment, or the elites, that they have nothing in life - it's only the fault of themselves.

If you think the "simmering resentment and frustration" is bad now - just wait until they realise they've been conned into voting for Brexit with false promises of a better life - when the reality is it will make their lives exponentially more miserable than they already are.

What do you think will happen then?

Once people have run out of scapegoats to blame for their own failures?

Do you think they'll finally wake up and realise it's not the EU, or Immigrants, or Elites, that are to blame for their position in life but only themselves?

I don't...

And unless politicians take that bull by the horn very rapidly indeed and start educating the public about the consequences of their actions and managing expectations a whole lot more effectively it almost certainly won't end well for anyone....

MacMickster

Interestingly, from that article

The poll by YouGov suggested that a rerun of the referendum vote now would result in a tie.

Given that "the polls" were showing a majority for remain right up to the actual referendum result, does this suggest that support for leaving the EU has strengthened since June?

CLAPTON

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

But what on earth do people expect?

Life is on the whole one giant meritocracy - the vast majority of successful people are successful simply because they work hard and invested time, effort and sacrifice in getting to the place they are today.

If they needed qualifications they got them.

If they needed to move for career opportunities they moved.

If they needed to invest extra time, energy and effort in the workplace to get promoted they did so.

Successful people by and large earned their success and paid for it with blood sweat and tears.

And the corollary of that is the vast majority of people who are relatively ordinary, or even distinctly unsuccessful, deserve exactly what they get out of life given that most things in this world are achieved on merit.

Nobody is owed a living - and even less is anyone owed a good living - these things have to be earned... and the harsh but true reality is that most people have only themseleves to thank or blame for their outcomes in life.



It will make things much, much worse for most of these people, but that isn't the truly dangerous part of all this.

The danger is that by humouring this entirely fallacious notion of victimisation, of blaming the other, and indulging the politics of envy... Society has only deferred the inevitable realisation that will have to come one day.

And that realisation is that it's not the fault of bankers, or politicians, or immigrants, or the establishment, or the elites, that they have nothing in life - it's only the fault of themselves.

If you think the "simmering resentment and frustration" is bad now - just wait until they realise they've been conned into voting for Brexit with false promises of a better life - when the reality is it will make their lives exponentially more miserable than they already are.

What do you think will happen then?

Once people have run out of scapegoats to blame for their own failures?

Do you think they'll finally wake up and realise it's not the EU, or Immigrants, or Elites, that are to blame for their position in life but only themselves?

I don't...

And unless politicians take that bull by the horn very rapidly indeed and start educating the public about the consequences of their actions and managing expectations a whole lot more effectively it almost certainly won't end well for anyone....

It would seem to imply therefore that their circumstances will be unchanged whether we are in or out of the EU.

Moby

Jason74 wrote: »

I think there's some truth in this. People voted the way they did for all sorts of reasons. My job actually sees me working quite closely with a lot of people on lower incomes, and I think that gives me some (but only some, we are talking about a professional relationship after all rather than close friends, albeit one that involves a large element of trust) insight into where people are coming from. The job involves delving quite deeply into people's circumstances, and sometimes people start talking more generally in a way that gives an insight into where they are coming from.

The big thing that comes across for me is just the extent to which many people who are just about getting by (or worse) are frustrated with their circumstances. Now some of that is about immigration fore sure, and I sometimes have to bat away comments on that subject that I'm more than a little uncomfortable with. But there is a wider dissatisfaction than that imho. It's about the struggle to get stable good quality work, the struggle to live on what work is available to many people, and the way that so much of how the system works just doesn't support people on low incomes (you only have to look at how little extra money people have for each extra pound earned in the benefit trap to see that). That grind breeds a simmering resentment and frustration that simply can't be grasped unless you see it close up.

The out vote from that group was imho largely driven from that frustration. Yes, if there was a single 'EU related" factor that swung their vote, it was imho immigration. But based on my conversations with many people who are struggling (to be fair, relatively few people spoke about the referendum itself, but many spoke about issues around it) , I think the out vote for many in that group was actually about the EU at all. It was about people who felt that they had been ignored for decades taking an opportunity to "kick" the establishment in the hope that someone might listen.

Now in one sense I think Hamish is right. I don't think coming out of the EU will do much to help many of those people, and there are a number of ways where it might make things worse (not least by potentially handing the levers of power to some of the politicians least interest in their situation, although May has perhaps been a pleasant surprise on that score so far).

But I get why they did it. When you feel you have nothing, and that nobody who has any power to address the situation has any interest in doing so, it's not a great place. I think to dismiss people using what they felt was the only opportunity to make their voice heard as "Turkeys voting for Christmas" is more than a little unafir, even if I agree that there is a high risk that the decision to do so will backfire.

People at the bottom of the pile were always going to suffer most from the politics of austerity......nothing new there Steve.....the idea that May, Johnston, Fox, Davis etc has anything to say to them is naive. These tories are using the new populism, energised by anger/fear over immigration to further their own political objectives:-

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/dec/13/brexit-leave-voters-theresa-may-promise

mayonnaise

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

But what on earth do people expect?

Life is on the whole one giant meritocracy - the vast majority of successful people are successful simply because they work hard and invested time, effort and sacrifice in getting to the place they are today.

If they needed qualifications they got them.

If they needed to move for career opportunities they moved.

If they needed to invest extra time, energy and effort in the workplace to get promoted they did so.

Successful people by and large earned their success and paid for it with blood sweat and tears.

And the corollary of that is the vast majority of people who are relatively ordinary, or even distinctly unsuccessful, deserve exactly what they get out of life given that most things in this world are achieved on merit.

Nobody is owed a living - and even less is anyone owed a good living - these things have to be earned... and the harsh but true reality is that most people have only themseleves to thank or blame for their outcomes in life.



It will make things much, much worse for most of these people, but that isn't the truly dangerous part of all this.

The danger is that by humouring this entirely fallacious notion of victimisation, of blaming the other, and indulging the politics of envy... Society has only deferred the inevitable realisation that will have to come one day.

And that realisation is that it's not the fault of bankers, or politicians, or immigrants, or the establishment, or the elites, that they have nothing in life - it's only the fault of themselves.

If you think the "simmering resentment and frustration" is bad now - just wait until they realise they've been conned into voting for Brexit with false promises of a better life - when the reality is it will make their lives exponentially more miserable than they already are.

What do you think will happen then?

Once people have run out of scapegoats to blame for their own failures?

Do you think they'll finally wake up and realise it's not the EU, or Immigrants, or Elites, that are to blame for their position in life but only themselves?

I don't...

And unless politicians take that bull by the horn very rapidly indeed and start educating the public about the consequences of their actions and managing expectations a whole lot more effectively it almost certainly won't end well for anyone....

Post of the month.