Music grades

missbiggles1

Cakeguts wrote: »

They aren't that interested in grades. If they have two candidates and one has passed grade 8 and only does exams and the other hasn't done any exams but played in youth groups and community groups if all things are equal they will go for the one who plays in the groups rather than the one who only does exams.

Anybody can say they play in a group - unless it's part of school activities and mentioned in the Head's reference it isn't necessarily valid.

Caroline_a

I've watched this thread with interest. The OP obviously has a big chip on his/her shoulder about grades - we can only summise why.

Discounting adults who learn instruments for pleasure rather than wanting to go into it as a profession, I think that the grade exams are a good way to bring through young musicians, in a similar way to dance exams. It gives them a sense of achievement if they do well, as well as being an excellent way to train for auditions, etc. The OP waxes lyrical about auditions but gives no route for youngsters to train for these!

The grades also offer a good all-round training for instrumental development, including theory, sight-reading, scales and arpeggios etc. Interestingly I remember as a youngster not particularly liking scales and arpeggios but doing them as I realised I had to do them well for the grades - I was too young at the time to realise how they developed technique and musicality as well!

I think that it's unlikely that anything anyone says will change the OP's mind as he/she seems so blinkered about this, and a little bit obsessed with the financial cost of it. In my eyes, and also in the eyes of my parents (who did the paying!) they were an extremely useful and productive route to take on a musical learning journey.

Cakeguts

Caroline_a wrote: »

I've watched this thread with interest. The OP obviously has a big chip on his/her shoulder about grades - we can only summise why.

Discounting adults who learn instruments for pleasure rather than wanting to go into it as a profession, I think that the grade exams are a good way to bring through young musicians, in a similar way to dance exams. It gives them a sense of achievement if they do well, as well as being an excellent way to train for auditions, etc. The OP waxes lyrical about auditions but gives no route for youngsters to train for these!

The grades also offer a good all-round training for instrumental development, including theory, sight-reading, scales and arpeggios etc. Interestingly I remember as a youngster not particularly liking scales and arpeggios but doing them as I realised I had to do them well for the grades - I was too young at the time to realise how they developed technique and musicality as well!

I think that it's unlikely that anything anyone says will change the OP's mind as he/she seems so blinkered about this, and a little bit obsessed with the financial cost of it. In my eyes, and also in the eyes of my parents (who did the paying!) they were an extremely useful and productive route to take on a musical learning journey.

I have nothing against children collecting certificates although I do think that these particular ones are a bit expensive for some families. I just wanted to point out that no one is obliged to take these exams. I would hate to think that parents are being told that if they don't pay for these exams their child might lose out. For some families the fees for grade exams on top of the lessons might just be too expensive but the way that people talk about these exams and there are examples on this thread parents might think that they are depriving their children of more than a bit of paper.

Cakeguts

missbiggles1 wrote: »

Anybody can say they play in a group - unless it's part of school activities and mentioned in the Head's reference it isn't necessarily valid.

Anyone can say they have passed a grade exam. The reason why they are more interested in the groups is because of the skills needed to play in a group one of them being a good team player. You get a reference from the conductors of the groups that you play in.

Cakeguts

Rosemary7391 wrote: »

That's exactly what I've said people are paying for - to be formally assessed according to the standard! They find that helpful for all sorts of reasons.

Re your first paragraph - I haven't missed the point, of course it's a label. What I'm saying is that the grade systems create a fairly useful reference label for many people.

As long as they realise that the reference labels are only compared to other grades. So grade 5 reference against grade 4 or grade 6. Nothing else. They are not standards in solo playing, any group playing, lessons. They are only standards in grades. They are not standards in any other playing apart from other grades.

Kaye1

While I don't agree with lots the OP has said, I do think that reminding parents that children don't have to do the grades is useful.

My daughter is working her through the Royal Academy of Dance grades- she loves it, very focused, super strict and expensive.

She asked to learn an instrument 'for fun.' The lady who taught piano through the school said she didn't want students who didn't take the grades. By chance, another lady started and offered flute. I spoke to her and she was happy to teach for the fun of it.

My daughter had a trial lesson and loves it. They learn pieces they enjoy and she recently played at the school Christmas Fayre. She herself said that she doesn't want to do grades because it makes it 'too serious.' She has been playing for a good while now and I think the relaxed manner has been really helpful to her.

Lavendyr

That's a mark of a good vs bad teacher right there, Kaye1.

ani*fan

Wow, this is quite a discussion...

OP, we don't care that you haven't passed Grade 8, honestly, it's ok.

Cakeguts

ani*fan wrote: »

Wow, this is quite a discussion...

OP, we don't care that you haven't passed Grade 8, honestly, it's ok.

I did take grade 8 when I was at school that is a) how I know that it didn't make any difference to anything b) that is an elementary exam c) it is a very expensive way to acquire a certificate. Having realised this I didn't want anyone else to feel obliged to pay for an exam that only leads to a certificate and nothing else especially since I have heard so many comments about these exams that are just not true. There are several examples of what people think about these exams that are not true in this thread which just proves the point that many people do not appear to realise what they are actually paying for.

Because this is a money saving website and because many adults don't realise that all you get from a grade exam is a certificate I started this thread so that if anyone was thinking about paying for a grade exam either for themselves or a child they would know what they would be getting for their money and not all the other things that people with vested interests or just lack of knowledge might tell them they would get.

You get a certificate that is all. The actual test is something that a good teacher could do as part of a lesson.

Malthusian

This thread is eerily familiar to me as someone who studied karate for many years when I was young. There is a certain type of student who has practised for many years and who delights in telling their juniors how being a black belt in karate doesn't make you any good, and is in fact downright average, something any idiot could achieve. This will then be followed by an unsolicited elaboration of how many further karate gradings they have passed (after you pass 1st dan and get your black belt, there is then 2nd dan, 3rd dan etc) or how many tournaments they have competed in, to prove how superior they are to 1st dan and how little the bog-standard black belt is worth.

It is perfectly true that a 1st dan black belt is not the end of karate instruction, more the end of the beginning. In the same way as I gather grade 8 instrument is not the end of musical learning but only the beginning for someone who wants to be a professional musician or even a half-decent amateur performer. But it is not particularly useful to point this out to a white belt (a complete beginner) for whom black belt is still a perfectly good aspiration. A 1st dan black belt is still better at his art than 99% of the population and for a beginner or someone in the lower grades, it does no-one any good to tell them that black belts are worthless. If they practise for a few years and achieve black belt they will have improved in strength and ability considerably from where they are now. Whether they want to go higher than 1st dan is a bridge they can cross when they come to it.

There is however a certain section of martial arts students - and probably in other disciplines as well - who prefer to look down on those below them rather than look up to those stronger.

OP, you're clearly a terrific professional musician, much better than any of us and much better than those dumb ol' grade 8s. Happy?