Music grades

Cakeguts

skea56 wrote: »

I apologise in advance as this is quite a long post, but I really feel quite aggrieved at the OP

Whilst I agree in some parts with the OP, especially the cost of entering and preparing for an instrument, (I use London College of Music, and every year they put up the cost of every exam by approx £1/£1.50, even though the syllabus only changes about every 5/6 years.), I would have to disagree totally on their argument that exams are an expensive piece of paper.

I have been a violin & piano tutor for many years. Throughout this time, I have witnessed all calibre of students pass through my doors, and the vast majority of them, once they were at the correct stage were entered in for exams. I myself had started at a young age and had attained my Grade 8 ABRSM in piano by the time I was 15. However, if you had asked me to play something for you, I could only have played you my latest exam piece, it has only been in later years that I have gone back and learned a larger repertoire of pieces just for fun.

With this is mind, I try to incorporate a healthy balance of graded and leisure pieces into my students education. Most grades take between 6 and 9 months of prep (Longer for the higher grades 5-8) We try to get exams out of the way at Christmas or Easter and then spend the last few weeks of the term learning new leisure pieces. At the moment the majority of my kids are practicing Christmas songs just for fun (though I may crack if I hear Jingle Bells again!!)

I would also disagree with the OP's assertion that most universities do not accept the grades in place of UCAS points. Over the past 3/4 years, I have had 6 students who have used the points gained from grades 6/7/8 to help boost this overall points to ensure they got into the course they needed. Yes they werent the straight equivalent of an A Level, but in all 6 cases, the few points these came with took them over the level required and they were accepted.

I find that students who have nothing to work towards find it difficult to be motivated to learn pieces for fun. For example, I currently have one student already is completing exams in Violin and so after doing up to Grade 3 in Piano, decided he wanted to concentrate on on his higher grades on the other instrument. We just do leisure pieces each week. Now he is quite talented but progress on these leisure pieces are slower than what I would expect if he was being graded. These are pieces he picks and wants to learn, but because there is no real pressure or deadline on him, he is making much slower progress than I would like. Thankfully his mother is very much hands on and makes a great effort to ensure he practice each week, but I fear it will all be for nothing very soon and he will lose interest. As I teach the boy both violin and piano, I can see how eager and talented he is when he knows he will be assessed at the end of the year.

The OP makes the point a few times about Grade 8 being "elementary" and that receiving a distinction should be easy for most young children. I don't know what kind of Mickey Mouse exam board the OP uses, but having experienced both LCM and ABRSM for both piano and violin, I can confirm it is extremely difficult. I find this highly offensive and insulting to all the kids & adults alike that practice constantly and receive a pass or merit.

One last point, the OP continually talks about being Grade 8 Standard - what even does this mean? Being a musician does not just mean playing an instrument at a certain level. You also need to be able to play by ear, listen carefully to intervals, cadences and distinguish rhythms. Sight reading is also a very important, as it helps paves the way for learning and exploring new pieces of music. Scales and technical work play a vital role in strengthening the fingers and hands, as well learning about keys and chord structures. Preparing for an exam takes you through all of this.

I had a student once that was so proud of the fact they could play the first section of The Maple Leaf Rag off by heart, which they had learned by listening to it on loop on YouTube over about 6 weeks. They wanted to progress to the 2nd section but could not find a version online of the same standard they had gotten the first part off, I would have assessed this student at about Gr 5 based on their technical ability on this piece alone. I found music of the first 3 sections of the piece, in near enough the exact same arrangement they had been used to, and yet we hit a major wall as they could not read the music written in front of them. He struggled through this piece for a full term before deciding to go back and prepare for an exam instead. Having relearned how to read music notes and rhythms, we again attempted the Rag once he had finished his Grade 5 exam, he sailed through the newer sections and even improved the first section.

Learning an instrument needs a student who is willing to put in the practice, parents/family that will be there to support and encourage them especially in the early years and the desire to improve and develop.
I am honest with my students and parents, if little or no progress is being made, I let the parents know so they can make a decision as to whether to continue lessons - I am not out to get every pound I can off unsuspecting people. I currently have 15 students, all of various levels, and I would rather stick with them than have double that of kids that are just being sent for the heck of it.

sk56

Difficulty is not an absolute. There are children getting distinctions for grade 8 ABRSM 2 years after starting an instrument from scratch. They would not consider it difficult.

To be clear about grade standards. Grade standards are only standards in grades they are not standards in anything else. So they are not standards in playing an instrument only in grades. I am sorry if people thought I was implying that they were a standard in music playing I did not intend that. When you pass a grade exam you get a certificate.

Grade 8 depending on the board might be labelled "advanced." This label does not mean that the playing standard required to pass the grade is advanced it means that it is an advanced grade compared to other grades only. So it is an advanced standard in grades not an advanced standard in playing. The level of playing required to pass grade 8 is elementary compared to the amount of further study anyone can do and standards of playing that can be achieved by both hobby players and people wanting to play for a living.

Good school music departments tell their students that grade 8 is the beginning of learning an instrument not the end of learning. They make sure that the students understand that there is a lot more that can be learned. This is important or you get adults who think that grade 8 is what you do when you are learning or that it is next to professional standard.

To all those confused adults I just want to point out that you can save money by not paying for these exams they are not something that you must do to learn an instrument. You do not need them for anything.

HiToAll

Cakeguts wrote: »

Difficulty is not an absolute. There are children getting distinctions for grade 8 ABRSM 2 years after starting an instrument from scratch. They would not consider it difficult.

To be clear about grade standards. Grade standards are only standards in grades they are not standards in anything else. So they are not standards in playing an instrument only in grades. I am sorry if people thought I was implying that they were a standard in music playing I did not intend that. When you pass a grade exam you get a certificate.

Grade 8 depending on the board might be labelled "advanced." This label does not mean that the playing standard required to pass the grade is advanced it means that it is an advanced grade compared to other grades only. So it is an advanced standard in grades not an advanced standard in playing. The level of playing required to pass grade 8 is elementary compared to the amount of further study anyone can do and standards of playing that can be achieved by both hobby players and people wanting to play for a living.

Good school music departments tell their students that grade 8 is the beginning of learning an instrument not the end of learning. They make sure that the students understand that there is a lot more that can be learned. This is important or you get adults who think that grade 8 is what you do when you are learning or that it is next to professional standard.

To all those confused adults I just want to point out that you can save money by not paying for these exams they are not something that you must do to learn an instrument. You do not need them for anything.

Do you pat people on the head and say 'there there', when you try to 'explain' your ideas to them in the real world.

You do talk some rubbish dont you. All grades are elementary, but only elementary in comparison to if you continue to learn more difficult music; but difficulty is not absolute; they are not standards, but are in comparison to one another (grades which get progressively difficult).

borkid

Cakeguts wrote: »

Difficulty is not an absolute. There are children getting distinctions for grade 8 ABRSM 2 years after starting an instrument from scratch. They would not consider it difficult.

To be clear about grade standards. Grade standards are only standards in grades they are not standards in anything else. So they are not standards in playing an instrument only in grades. I am sorry if people thought I was implying that they were a standard in music playing I did not intend that. When you pass a grade exam you get a certificate.

Grade 8 depending on the board might be labelled "advanced." This label does not mean that the playing standard required to pass the grade is advanced it means that it is an advanced grade compared to other grades only. So it is an advanced standard in grades not an advanced standard in playing. The level of playing required to pass grade 8 is elementary compared to the amount of further study anyone can do and standards of playing that can be achieved by both hobby players and people wanting to play for a living.

Good school music departments tell their students that grade 8 is the beginning of learning an instrument not the end of learning. They make sure that the students understand that there is a lot more that can be learned. This is important or you get adults who think that grade 8 is what you do when you are learning or that it is next to professional standard.

To all those confused adults I just want to point out that you can save money by not paying for these exams they are not something that you must do to learn an instrument. You do not need them for anything.

Exactly the same with any subject. Adults who think that are deluding themselves sadly many do but that is not the fault of the exams it's the fault of the adult not doing enought research. Sadly because anyone can be a private teacher quite a few think if they have grade 8 they are qualified to teach. Serioulsy I have heard this on several occasions. I have heard of someone who took the exam after grade 8 passed it and told his teacher he was going to teach and wasn't taking anymore lessons. Despite the teacher telling him he wasn't ready he carried on regardless.

missbiggles1

Cakeguts wrote: »

Yes you do get UCAS points but most universities don't accept them from grades.

Some do, some don't. In the case of two equally qualified candidates, it could swing the balance.

Rosemary7391

Whether grade 8 is advanced depends on your point of reference surely. I think for most children and casual players it isn't a bad one. Of course it isn't professional, but you can have plenty of fun if you're playing at that standard. Certainly in the places I tend to play, grade 8 level playing would be considered advanced.

skea56

"Difficulty is not an absolute. There are children getting distinctions for grade 8 ABRSM 2 years after starting an instrument from scratch. They would not consider it difficult."

Now I know you're talking balderdash. You must be extremely lucky to know so many gifted children that can pick up an instrument so quickly....and yet how unfortunate for them that they quite obviously have no other life other than sitting with an instrument in their hands 24 hours a day....because that is what it would take to learn and master all the skills needed to be of grade 8 standard within 2 years.

My students get 30 mins of tutoring each week and are advised to practice for approx 15-20 mins during the week for beginners up to an hour a day for the more advanced grades.

Sk56

Cakeguts

skea56 wrote: »

"Difficulty is not an absolute. There are children getting distinctions for grade 8 ABRSM 2 years after starting an instrument from scratch. They would not consider it difficult."

Now I know you're talking balderdash. You must be extremely lucky to know so many gifted children that can pick up an instrument so quickly....and yet how unfortunate for them that they quite obviously have no other life other than sitting with an instrument in their hands 24 hours a day....because that is what it would take to learn and master all the skills needed to be of grade 8 standard within 2 years.

My students get 30 mins of tutoring each week and are advised to practice for approx 15-20 mins during the week for beginners up to an hour a day for the more advanced grades.

Sk56

http://www.nco.org.uk/join-in/eligibility/grades

This is the under 10 orchestra and they are suggesting children would be able to pass certain grades before they audition although they don't have take these grades.

Just because you don't have any experience of children passing grade 8 at any level after only playing for 2 years doesn't mean there aren't any. It just means that you don't know any.

Cakeguts

missbiggles1 wrote: »

Some do, some don't. In the case of two equally qualified candidates, it could swing the balance.

They aren't that interested in grades. If they have two candidates and one has passed grade 8 and only does exams and the other hasn't done any exams but played in youth groups and community groups if all things are equal they will go for the one who plays in the groups rather than the one who only does exams.

Cakeguts

Rosemary7391 wrote: »

Whether grade 8 is advanced depends on your point of reference surely. I think for most children and casual players it isn't a bad one. Of course it isn't professional, but you can have plenty of fun if you're playing at that standard. Certainly in the places I tend to play, grade 8 level playing would be considered advanced.

Sorry you have missed the point. The advanced bit is the way the grade is labelled it isn't an indication of any standard needed to pass it is just a label put on the grade. If the grade 8 was labelled a yellow grade it would mean the same as the advanced. It is just a bit of labeling. So grade 8 is advanced compared to grade 4 for example but this doesn't mean that it is advanced compared to any other playing. Grades are only standards in grades they aren't standards in any other playing.

When you pay your £87 entry fee you are paying for an examiner to listen to you play music set for the grade. That examiner then decides whether the way you play the music set for the exam is of the standard where they can give you a pass for that grade. The thing is that most teachers could tell you if you can play a piece of music to a certain standard ( it may not be the same one but it will equal how far you have got) during your lesson. Generally the teacher is going to be a better judge of how you are getting on than a complete stranger.

Unless you understand this is what you are paying for you don't really know what you are buying.

Rosemary7391

Cakeguts wrote: »

Sorry you have missed the point. The advanced bit is the way the grade is labelled it isn't an indication of any standard needed to pass it is just a label put on the grade. If the grade 8 was labelled a yellow grade it would mean the same as the advanced. It is just a bit of labeling. So grade 8 is advanced compared to grade 4 for example but this doesn't mean that it is advanced compared to any other playing. Grades are only standards in grades they aren't standards in any other playing.

When you pay your £87 entry fee you are paying for an examiner to listen to you play music set for the grade. That examiner then decides whether the way you play the music set for the exam is of the standard where they can give you a pass for that grade. The thing is that most teachers could tell you if you can play a piece of music to a certain standard ( it may not be the same one but it will equal how far you have got) during your lesson. Generally the teacher is going to be a better judge of how you are getting on than a complete stranger.

Unless you understand this is what you are paying for you don't really know what you are buying.

That's exactly what I've said people are paying for - to be formally assessed according to the standard! They find that helpful for all sorts of reasons.

Re your first paragraph - I haven't missed the point, of course it's a label. What I'm saying is that the grade systems create a fairly useful reference label for many people.