Music grades

Cakeguts

Caroline_a wrote: »

No idea what instrument you are talking about, or whether things have changed since I took mine (I doubt it very much) but this is utter tosh. I played (led) my county orchestra, played on the BBC as part of a small string orchestra and also went to Berlin for an exchange with the Berlin Youth Orchestra. Most of us in the county orchestra were Grade 8, many were in the National Youth Orchestra. I wouldn't consider any of their playing 'elementary'.

I've just looked at the syllabus for the current violin grade 8 - elementary it's not!!

Do you actually have any instrumental experience OP, and if so, which instrument?

This is the usual reply that I get which proves to me that adults really do not understand these grades and don't understand what they are paying for. You cannot tell the standard required to pass the grade from looking at the music. The grade is the way that the music is played. The only people who know what this is likely to be is an examiner on a particular day. The music that is set for grade exams is often taken from classical music repertoire. To get an understanding of what you pay for in a grade exam you have to consider the difference in playing standards between a top professional player playing the pieces set for the grade exams and someone learning an instrument taking a grade exam. The top professional player will play the same pieces much much better than the way they need to be played to pass grade 8. The standard of playing required to pass a grade 8 exam is elementary compared to what is possible. You cannot use a grade exam for a standard in orchestral playing because they don't test that. For example you wouldn't find a second violin part set as a piece for a grade exam.

Yes I play an instrument and I haven't done any grades on it because I knew that I didn't need to. Over many years I have met many adults who do not understand what they are paying for when they pay to take a grade or pay for a child to take a grade. I think that it is very important for people to understand what they get for their money when they buy anything.

Caroline_a

Oh dear oh dear....

For example you wouldn't find a second violin part set as a piece for a grade exam

Well of course you wouldnt, unless it was a sight-reading piece. If you knew anything about orchestral violin music and grade music you would realise that grade music tends to be solo pieces. Second violins for the most part play accompaniments.

You appear obsessed with money - Grades are the industry standard for instruments. Professional musicians understand what level someone has reached if they are able to pass them. You think they are expensive - they are as expensive as you want to make them. The worse a musician you are, the more expensive they will be as you will need many more lessons!

If a child is learning music then it's no different from any other set of examinations that children would do in many subjects. Grade 8 used to be (and may still be) the equivalent of A level, Grade 5 the equivalent of GCSE. If, by your reasoning, Grade 8 is 'elementary' then you are belittling the hard work and talent of many many young people. Professional musicians would laugh at your reasoning.

Cakeguts

Caroline_a wrote: »

Oh dear oh dear....



Well of course you wouldnt, unless it was a sight-reading piece. If you knew anything about orchestral violin music and grade music you would realise that grade music tends to be solo pieces. Second violins for the most part play accompaniments.

You appear obsessed with money - Grades are the industry standard for instruments. Professional musicians understand what level someone has reached if they are able to pass them. You think they are expensive - they are as expensive as you want to make them. The worse a musician you are, the more expensive they will be as you will need many more lessons!

If a child is learning music then it's no different from any other set of examinations that children would do in many subjects. Grade 8 used to be (and may still be) the equivalent of A level, Grade 5 the equivalent of GCSE. If, by your reasoning, Grade 8 is 'elementary' then you are belittling the hard work and talent of many many young people. Professional musicians would laugh at your reasoning.

This is a money saving website. I want to suggest that people understand what they are paying for and realise that they can save money by not paying for these exams and it won't make any difference to learning a musical instrument.

Grade 5 is not an equivalent of any school exams. You cannot use it as a GCSE to get a job so you couldn't get a job needing 5 GCSEs with 4 GCSEs and a grade 5. Universities will not accept grade 8 instead of an A level. You can get UCAS points for grade exams but many universities don't accept them whereas they all accept UCAS points from A levels.

What do you mean by industry standard? What age do you have in mind? 5 up to 18? Or older?

Second violins play an accompaniment part and grade exams use solo pieces to test how people play them. So which part of a grade exam tests playing an accompanying part or even ensemble playing?

Do you think that Nicola Bennedetti would find it difficult to play in a way that would give her a pass in grade 8?

I have played professionally.

As I said before all you get after a grade exam is certificate. You don't get anything else. The exams don't lead onto anything else except another grade. They aren't standards in ensemble playing. Entry to music college is by audition. Entry to university music courses is by audition. Which job could you get on the strength of having passed a grade?

As long as people understand that all they are going to get for their money is a mark sheet and a certificate and nothing else then they can decide if they want to spend their money in this way. In my experience people don't understand that this is all you get after these exams they tend to think that there is more to them than there is.

Caroline_a

Cakeguts wrote: »

Grade 5 is not an equivalent of any school exams. You cannot use it as a GCSE to get a job so you couldn't get a job needing 5 GCSEs with 4 GCSEs and a grade 5. Universities will not accept grade 8 instead of an A level. You can get UCAS points for grade exams but many universities don't accept them whereas they all accept UCAS points from A levels.

Yeah right ok....

From the Royal Academy of Music's website -

Entrance Standards
Evidence of professional performing potential in your principal study, sound general musicianship and a good aural response.
You do not need to have taken any formal practical music examinations. But, as a guide, we expect students to meet the level of at least:
- Grade 8 or DipABRSM in Associated Board of the Royal Schools of Music (ABRSM) examinations
- Grade 8 or Associate Diploma (ATCL) in Trinity/Guildhall examinations.
If your principal study is not a keyboard instrument, there is no formal minimum entry standard in keyboard skills. However, ABRSM Grade 5 minimum (or equivalent) in piano is desirable, to enable you to improve your general musicianship.

From the website of the Northern College of Music -

Undergraduate requirements

BMus (UCAS Conservatoires code: 300F)

Applicants must:

Be at least 18 years of age on 31 December in their year of entry.
Have passes at GCE A level (A2) in a minimum of two subjects at grade E or above, normally including music, and passes in three different subjects at GCSE level (Grades A*-C) or acceptable equivalent.
Applicants whose first language is not English must have IELTS 5.5 or equivalent in each and every component (or CEFR B2).
Pass an RNCM audition in the year prior to entry demonstrating a high standard of performance (composition ability for composers) and potential, of at least ABRSM Grade 8 standard.

I cannot be bothered arguing about second violin parts versus solo pieces or whether Nicola Benedetti can play to Grade 8 standard as this is just ridiculous. You haven't chosen to answer what instrument you play which is interesting. You know little about violin competence so I doubt it's a string instrument. Hopefully if you have children who are learning you don't put your prejudiced views on them, as, if they wish to be educated via the classical route you will seriously disadvantage them.

Gingernutty

The grade system doesn't just measure the ability to play an instrument, it measures the ability to read music, sight read an unfamiliar piece and identify scales etc.

It's not enough to be good at playing an instrument, the theory is also important.

To begin A Level Music, one must be at least at Grade 8 level, not just practically but in theory.

Cakeguts

Caroline_a wrote: »

Yeah right ok....

From the Royal Academy of Music's website -


From the website of the Northern College of Music -



I cannot be bothered arguing about second violin parts versus solo pieces or whether Nicola Benedetti can play to Grade 8 standard as this is just ridiculous. You haven't chosen to answer what instrument you play which is interesting. You know little about violin competence so I doubt it's a string instrument. Hopefully if you have children who are learning you don't put your prejudiced views on them, as, if they wish to be educated via the classical route you will seriously disadvantage them.

It says on your links that you don't need to have taken any grade exams. Whether you have passed one or not makes no difference because you have to pass an audition to get a place.

For violin there are now primary school children taking grade 8 on fractional violins. One I know of passed grade 8 with distinction on a 3/4 violin while at primary school. I know this because it was my 3/4 size violin that they took the exam on. This is not exceptional. As I said grade 8 is an elementary exam compared to the standard of top professional players.

No child will be disadvantaged by not taking grades. The links you provided say that you do not need to have taken any exams to get to audition for music college.

There is no qualification called professional playing standard. You get to be a professional player in an orchestra by passing an audition and a trial with the orchestra. This is why there are several professional players in London orchestras who didn't even study music at college and have university degrees in unrelated subjects.

It is quite possible to go from beginner to playing in a professional orchestra without ever taking any grades. It is passing the auditions that count. This why people can save money by not paying for grades. They are not a necessary part of learning an instrument.

I started this thread to help people choose whether or not to spend money on these exams because they are optional and not necessary.

Caroline_a

I'm out. Cannot be bothered arguing with idiots who think they know it all.

Cakeguts

Gingernutty wrote: »

The grade system doesn't just measure the ability to play an instrument, it measures the ability to read music, sight read an unfamiliar piece and identify scales etc.

It's not enough to be good at playing an instrument, the theory is also important.

To begin A Level Music, one must be at least at Grade 8 level, not just practically but in theory.

Did you know that people have passed grade 8 on the violin who have learned by Suzuki method? They memorize the pieces, scales, and study. Learn how to do the aural and fail the sight reading because they can't read music. The way that they do this is to copy the way the music is played on the CD that you can buy with the written music. This means that someone can pass grade 8 and not be able to play a part in an ensemble because they can't read the music. There are people who have passed grades who can only play the music that they learned for the grades they can't play anything else. All they have done is to copy the way the pieces are played on the CD. They can't sight read because they can't work out simple rhythms or read music accurately.

People need to be aware of what they are paying for and there are so many myths about these exams that it is difficult to find out what they actually are and what they are not. Music lessons are expensive and some people might be relieved to find out that they don't need to pay for any of these exams.

daytona0

I'm grade 8 at playing the world's smallest violin

Cakeguts

ThumbRemote wrote: »

It costs £80 for a Physics A-Level exam. Other A-levels are cheaper or more expensive.
http://filestore.aqa.org.uk/admin/library/AQA-ENTRY-FEES-2016-17-BOOKLET.PDF

Anyone studying an A-Level in evening class will pay this examination fee. Many people do because they want proof of their ability.

I don't really understand what you're saying. What would be a better way to measure someone's ability at playing a musical instrument?

Why is there a need to measure how someone plays a musical instrument? Most people learn a musical instrument as a hobby to help them relax and have some fun. The instrumental teacher will know what standard they have got to and they will also know which students are likely to pass an audition for music college or university they don't need an exam to tell them this.