Britain can be better off outside Europe

Kohoutek

Conrad wrote: »

And you illustrate one of the problems with EU cultists. You start out with the assumption we, left to our own devices, will make self harming silly decisions, and be walked all over by the likes of China in spite of the experience of smaller independent nations, lol. I think we will make our way in the world, no need for the old Men of Brussells to guide our hand

Can you give us these examples of small independent nations that have maintained an equal bargaining position when negotiating with China?

CLAPTON

mwpt wrote: »

Your messages are too mixed to be truthful though.

You believe in free trade which means poorer countries with terrible labour laws can undercut UK businesses and suppress our wages, but you don't believe in free movement which you claim allows foreign workers to work for less and suppress our wages.

I support free trade with most countries and no I don't believe in the unrestricted free movement of people from all countries.

Even a superficial look at the two situations will detect they are not equivalent.

If you really don't see why this is so, then please feel free to ask.

CLAPTON

Kohoutek wrote: »

Can you give us these examples of small independent nations that have maintained an equal bargaining position when negotiating with China?

can you give examples of countries trading with china where there is no mutual advantage.

Kohoutek

CLAPTON wrote: »

I support free trade with most countries.

Do you think you'd support free trade of agricultural products with all countries in the world if you were a UK farmer?

CLAPTON

Kohoutek wrote: »

Do you think you'd support free trade of agricultural products with all countries in the world if you were a UK farmer?

most farmers/ manufactures/ retail/ etc want monopolies or cartels:
I also believe that anyone called CLAPTON should be paid a special tax free pension of £1million each week because it is 'fair'.

Conrad

mwpt wrote: »

No, I don't. I have never said that.

PS. You keep refusing to answer my question, why are you suddenly so concerned about freedom of movement? You spent a lot of time implying you were after all the glorious trade deal opportunities. Was it about immigration all along?

I was always concerned about mass uncontrolled immigration and have spoken endlessly about the dire effects on housing, the environment, congestion, intensive agricultural pressures and far more.

Any right minded person would think a sensible we'll organised immigration system is conducive to a good well planned society.

Conrad

Kohoutek wrote: »

Can you give us these examples of small independent nations that have maintained an equal bargaining position when negotiating with China?

Well firstly the subtext to your outlook is that the mighty EU is in a position to capture this 'equal bargaining' outcome you have in mind, but this is irrelevant as the EU has no deal with the likes of China and the US

Secondly I do not see a widespread issue with prospering independent nations complaining they are bullied as is implied by your line of questioning, do you? Just another silly appeal to impotent emotion. We have nothing to fear. Anyone would think the mighty EU would have delivered unrivalled prosperity to all, given your assumption the EU size equates with excellent trade outcomes. Bizzare

Kohoutek

Conrad wrote: »

Well firstly the subtext to your outlook is that the mighty EU is in a position to capture this 'equal bargaining' outcome you have in mind, but this is irrelevant as the EU has no deal with the likes of China and the US

Secondly I do not see a widespread issue with prospering independent nations complaining they are bullied as is implied by your line of questioning, do you? Just another silly appeal to impotent emotion. We have nothing to fear. Anyone would think the mighty EU would have delivered unrivalled prosperity to all, given your assumption the EU size equates with excellent trade outcomes. Bizzare

It's really not that difficult, although by being unclear you've made it sound complicated. Do you accept that, if you are negotiating a trade agreement with a country / economic bloc much larger than your own, there is an inequality of bargaining power? I'm asking you given you're the one is prophesying that "free trade deals" will bring great prosperity to the UK.

Conrad

Kohoutek wrote: »

It's really not that difficult, although by being unclear you've made it sound complicated. Do you accept that, if you are negotiating a trade agreement with a country / economic bloc much larger than your own, there is an inequality of bargaining power? I'm asking you given you're the one is prophesying that "free trade deals" will bring great prosperity to the UK.

No I do not accept your somewhat simplistic distillation of bilateral trade deals as being necessarily of master and servant asymmetry, for far more reasons than I care to go into.

BobQ

Sapphire wrote: »

Yes, exactly – and my point is that unfortunately the EU is unreformable. The EU bureaucrats are still doggedly pursuing the same path towards 'ever-greater political union', despite the growing and obvious signs that their 'project' will not work – not for a continent that has such a diverse group of sovereign nations, with distinct ideologies, cultures and histories, and with widely different economies and attitudes to work. One size definitely will not fit all in this case…

I concur that the problem is the EU bureaucracy.

What I find bizarre is that the Commissioners are appointed by national Governments, staffed by civil servants from the nations, in rough proportion to the EU national populations; the Presidents are appointed by the elected Parliament; and the key decisions are made by national ministers. Therefore, why do the National Governments not exercise more control? I felt that the border controls introduced by nations and the instability of the Euro, were a clear sign that change was about to happen.

I'm still not convinced that change will not happen when we transition out of the EU. The Brexit discussions may also drive change.

From what has been said recently, the Government appears not to want to join EFTA either. If we did that it might be a catalyst for other nations to exit the EU.



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