The EU: IN or OUT?

BananaRepublic

Xiderpunk wrote: »

I am voting out. Campaign 'fear and threaten' won't blackmail me otherwise.

I worry that the Project Fear, summarised by a BBC reporter as "whoo, whoo whoo", makes the in campaign sound ridiculous, a version of crying wolf. When they tell us that leaving the EU will lead to zombies in the streets, we will just say "Yeah, yeah, we know" and show no surprise.

There are real benefits to the EU. The link above shows that the free trade agreement within the single market cuts trade costs, perhaps by an amount equal to the EU membership fee, maybe more, so in reality the membership cost is not the true cost, as it ignores savings. But Project Fear does not tell us this, they say "Outside the EU is scary, really scary, so scary you cannot believe how scary it is, ooh I'm frightened, I want my mummy". This is a negative message and history tells us positive campaigns work better. People prefer a happy ending. Just look at Milliband's version of Project Fear. It failed miserably.

As for immigration, we may have little choice if out. Any EU trade deal might likely force free movement of labour.

For me the political aspects of rule by Europe are the reason I might vote out. And I suspect a lot of Europeans agree with me on this. We want free trade, and cooperation on finding criminals, but we don't want our courts and parliament being overruled.

jimjames

BananaRepublic wrote: »

As for immigration, we may have little choice if out. Any EU trade deal might likely force free movement of labour.

For me this is exactly it. The leavers are being sold a pup by their leadership who are not (currently) in any position to deliver anything they say and have no idea what will be agreed. People seem happy to accept that they're voting for a complete unknown and don't seem to realise that the outcome for immigration could be identical to that now.

mrginge

BananaRepublic wrote: »

As for immigration, we may have little choice if out. Any EU trade deal might likely force free movement of labour.

We will have complete choice.
If free movement of labour is a red line for the EU then there will be no trade deal.
That is the entire point.
The EU cannot dictate terms to us just as we cannot dictate terms to them.

Dird

BananaRepublic wrote: »

There are real benefits to the EU. The link above shows that the free trade agreement within the single market cuts trade costs, perhaps by an amount equal to the EU membership fee, maybe more, so in reality the membership cost is not the true cost, as it ignores savings.

And conversely you can just as easily find people opposed to free-trade agreements on both the right (trump) & left (sanders). If Poland wasn't such a useless country it'd be an easier out vote as our factories would have been outsourced for cheaper costs & no import tax.

The campaign doesn't even touch on the true costs. The remain keep saying European migrants are net contributors but with population growth as it is (a new Birmingham every 3 years) that means providing the infrastructure for a new Birmingham every 3 years, e.g.:
- over 300 primary schools, or expansions of existing schools to the equivalent, or 60 students per class
- around 100 high schools, or ....
- new hospitals & GPs or waiting times in the months
- staff for all these resources to be paid by the government, adding to it's debt. Ungrateful turds would just go on strike every week too

I doubt income tax from Starbucks/Primark/Tesco pays enough to cover all that

masonic

mrginge wrote: »

We will have complete choice.
If free movement of labour is a red line for the EU then there will be no trade deal.
That is the entire point.
The EU cannot dictate terms to us just as we cannot dictate terms to them.

The people will have no say about movement of labour. It will be decided by the current Government, who has not committed to withdrawing from any current EU treaty should we vote to leave the EU.

kingrulzuk

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b07gpffq/britain-europe-the-immigration-question#group=p02q33dg




As you can see on this BBC program the young lady from Clacton is voting OUT and the reasons why she is and so many others are

zolablue25

BananaRepublic wrote: »

The idea that we are better off with EU politicians than our own is barking. We have a long tradition of democracy, and MPs with independent thought. We elect our MPs, and if we dislike them, we get rid of them. You can't get rid of an EU commissioner, they are appointed, often because they did favours for important people, or it is their turn. As for competence, look at Greece. They willfully turned a blind eye to the accounting fraud of the Greek government. All in the name of a utopian dream. My worry is that the EU is about socialist pipe dreams, whereas we are known as pragmatists. We have not had a Napoleon or a Hitler for a long while, due to our political structures. And TTIP frightens me.

I see genuine concerns from business, but the EU facelessness scares me.

What a lovely theoretical thought. We have democracy. Really? We have something we call democracy. Is it democracy when 24% of registered voters elect a government (by government, I mean a party with an overall majority). Even if you take out the 34% of registered voters that didn't vote (34%!) the Conservatives were elected by only 37% of the voters.

Anyway, I don't wish to take this off topic with a debate about democracy, and no, I don't necessarily thnk adding a further layer of EU politicians is necessarily a good thing I just think the whole system is broken.

I stand by my own opinion of the referendum in so much as the Tories felt they had to offer it and try to persuade voters to back the EU. If voters decide to ignore their arguments/lies and believe the "leave" campaigns arguments/lies then so that is up to them.

I can fully understand people wanting to change the status quo. That's a perfectly reasonably human desire. Personally, my life is pretty good at the moment so I would like things to remain the same but each to their own - after all, that's what democracy really is.

zolablue25

kingrulzuk wrote: »

Its ok as when UK votes OUT so will the other EU country like Sweden

My money would be on Denmark being the first to look at following us out IF we end up getting favourable treatment from the EU with regards trade deals. And, I'm not so sure the NL are quite so enamoured with the EU project as they used to be and would likely be the first of the Euro countries in line (but I think it would be more problemattical for a Euro country to exit).

Problem is, I reckon the EU politicians realise that, should UK leave and be given a good deal, then others will follow and the whole thing will collapse. They can't afford that (IMHO) and so will, I think, attempt to play hard ball to prevent others from wanting to follow.

zolablue25

bigadaj wrote: »

An obvious example is the death penalty, given a free vote or referendum it's quite likely this would be reintroduced.

But, of course, this couldn't happen unless we left the EU as it is against one of the EU fundamental principles.

Maybe after Brexit we can have a vote on the Death Penalty although, as the US is finding out, its getting harder to find companies to supply the lethal injections (that pesky EU again). Of course, we could always use rope or bullets (not electricity though, the wind might not be blowing hard enough for those turbines to go round)- that worked reasonably well in the old days.

zolablue25

ElsieMonkey wrote: »

I read something recently where the question was reversed. If it was a referendum to JOIN the EU (as the EU stands right now), would you vote to be a part of it, or would you vote to remain independent? Very interesting I thought, made me think.

I don't know as I'm not in that situation. I would like to think that I would weigh up the arguments but that would probably be the same problem as we have now "Utopia vs Fear" and you'd still need to wade through the lies to try and make that judgement. It would also depend on my own circumstances. If I felt my own personal lot could be improved by joining then I would vote for it (probably) but if I was doing very nicely thank you in the status quo then I would probably be against.