The EU: IN or OUT?

Linton

Perhaps with Boris as FM and David Davis managing BREXIT it's a case of "you caused this mess, now you can fix it".

PS: and Liam Fox as Trade Secrretary.

Glen_Clark

talexuser wrote: »

There are rumours that Merkel is well p===ed with Juncker for not giving Cameron a little bit more to take back in the renegotiation, and thus leading to the out vote

Wouldn't have made any difference. A large part of the out vote was from the have nots who saw it as a vote against the establishment and would voter for the opposition whoever was in power. I think what swung it though is politicians have blamed the EU for everything, and its backfired on them because people believed them and voted against the EU.

Glen_Clark

moneyfoolish wrote: »

Bad start by May having Buffoon Boris in her cabinet.

Yes, but there is Good News too Cameron owed Osborne a favour for successfully organising his party leadership Campaign. (Why else was he Chancellor) Bloody Theresa doesn't owe Osborne any favours so could get rid of him at last :T

BananaRepublic

Glen_Clark wrote: »

Wouldn't have made any difference. A large part of the out vote was from the have nots who saw it as a vote against the establishment and would voter for the opposition whoever was in power. I think what swung it though is politicians have blamed the EU for everything, and its backfired on them because people believed them and voted against the EU.

The truth is that most people are not stupid and watched with puzzlement while the two camps hurled bricks at each other and made adsurd claims. I was a marginal Brexiter, and could have voted remain had Cameron got a decent deal i.e. basically signing up for trade but not political union. The margin was only about 1 million people, so a decent EU deal could have swung it.

AnotherJoe

BananaRepublic wrote: »

The truth is that most people are not stupid and watched with puzzlement while the two camps hurled bricks at each other and made adsurd claims. I was a marginal Brexiter, and could have voted remain had Cameron got a decent deal i.e. basically signing up for trade but not political union. The margin was only about 1 million people, so a decent EU deal could have swung it.

The problem was the Eurocrats just didn't understand the angst in the UK over the endless flow of prescriptive regulations and ones that utterly rode roughshod over sovereignty, such as the child allowance. Stuff like that should never have been part of single market. And they still didn't understand it even after Brexit, for example trying to push through the Canada trade deal without allowing individual countries to vote has now riled up a whole bunch of other countries.

Whats going to happen in Autumn when Hungary most likely votes against the new refugee rules, something they have no power to amend despite them having referendum. That could potentially trigger a Hexit referendum.

I do think a better deal with real concessions from the EU woudl have swung it, but I dont think Cameron could have got a better deal without playing a much harder game, and even then it might not have worked, for example you'd think there's lot of everyday stuff we could simply have blocked unless we got concessions, but the issue is the EU had to hold a hard line against that because it could have created a bandwagon. Why one rule for the UK one for everyone else? Because they didnt really think we were serious, they thought we were sucked in, Project fear helping that a lot.

FWIW I was a very marginal Remain. Very marginal. Oh yes and in 1975 I voted Leave because i could see that we were getting sucked into a political union not an economic one. About my only bit of political prescience or I'd be a millionaire now from betting on results

Glen_Clark

AnotherJoe wrote: »

The problem was the Eurocrats just didn't understand the angst in the UK over the endless flow of prescriptive regulations and ones that utterly rode roughshod over sovereignty,

If we really had been ruled from Brussels we would not have illegally invaded Iraq because the rest of Europe was against it.

AnotherJoe

Glen_Clark wrote: »

If we really had been ruled from Brussels we would not have illegally invaded Iraq because the rest of Europe was against it.

That area of sovereignty is about the only one left and that will presumably go once the EU army is created.

Linton

BananaRepublic wrote: »

The truth is that most people are not stupid and watched with puzzlement while the two camps hurled bricks at each other and made adsurd claims. I was a marginal Brexiter, and could have voted remain had Cameron got a decent deal i.e. basically signing up for trade but not political union. The margin was only about 1 million people, so a decent EU deal could have swung it.

I cant see a full trade union is possible without significant political union. The problem is non tariff barriers. You need a large degree of legal and standards harmonisation for companies located in one country to be able to trade seamlessly and efficiently in other countries. This implies a supra-national authority to police these common standards and laws. It also requires some way, presumably majority voting, to ensure that decisions can actually be made.

The problem I saw with the Remain campaign is that it didnt educate people on the links between a harmonised Europe and their jobs and the realities of a global economy but rather focussed on detailed economic outcomes which everyone knows are impossible to predict, even in the good times.

With BREXIT we will still need to follow EU standards and laws unless we are to lose a major part of our trade, but sadly we will have little input as to their contents.

magpiecottage

CLAPTON wrote: »

clearly not the same situation

I agree - she actually wanted an election amongst the Conservative Party whereas Brown and his followers engineered a coronation.

She also did have an election among the conservative MPs, which she won. It is not her fault that the runner up pulled out of then putting it to the entire party.

treemachine

Linton wrote: »

I cant see a full trade union is possible without significant political union. contents.

I must have missed when Canada/ Mexico and the USA formed a political union to form NAFTA....