BREXIT - Why?

uk1

hoc wrote: »

Vote out and... we will figure it out later? Out has not put forward any serious options on anything, the obvious annoyances with the EU have been voiced but no serious alternatives proposed. There isn't even a consistent Out, it's several branches complaining about similar things without any realistic solutions. I was willing to be convinced going into this referendum but Out's lies in the last few days (not exaggerations, but deceitful intentional lies) have made it an easy decision.

So what do you think would happen to us if we were to leave then?

Jeff

maxie014

uk1 wrote: »

So what do you think would happen to us if we were to leave then?

Jeff

Its obvious innit!

We will be like somalia by xmas,industry and the banks collapse,the £ devalued many times.
Basically up sh*& creek without our good friends in the eu to look after us,after all we were nearly a third world country before the eu,armageddon really

PenguinJim

bigfreddiel wrote: »

So we're agreed in or out will make no difference so we may as well vote OUT.

Even if we assume there's no financial difference, there are still other flagrantly obvious and indisputable losses that will result from an OUT vote.

For example, today I have the right to buy a house in France, move there with my wife, and live there indefinitely. (Interestingly enough, despite my British passport and being British-born, I don't have the right to do the same thing in the UK!)

I lose that right if we leave the EU.

Fancy retiring to a nice Italian villa near the Mediterranean coast? Nope, won't be able to do that any more - unless you meet all the requirements to change nationality. (Being able to say "ciao" and wave your hands around a lot does not make one fluent in Italian, by the way. I learned that the hard way.)

How many Brits in places like Spain will be forced to return to the UK?

And let's say that you have married your European partner and are currently living, retired, with them in an EU country. Our present social security agreements with the EU countries mean that our UK pensions increase each year, as they do in the UK. Losing this agreement means our pensions will be chipped away each year by inflation. (Note that we can set up new agreements with each country individually to avoid this - I'm mentioning it here as a potential consequence.)

So, if there's no financial benefit, but we do lose a load of our current rights, we may as well vote IN, surely?

lessavyfav

uk1 wrote: »

Would I wish to align with someone who is going to make such an important decision on this dumb basis?

No thanks.

I never said that was the only reason I'd vote to remain. I have many other reasons but it is certainly a strong factor.

I think you knew that. Or if you didn't, maybe you are thick.

Now if I thought our potential PM Boris was going to use this imaginary spare money on NHS, education, transport, the less privileged – well that might be a different story. If I believed that someone like Rupert Murdoch was all for Brexit because it would benefit the average Jo in the UK or if he'd expressed compelling reasons for leaving, again, maybe a different story, but my gut feeling tells me otherwise. The rest of the people I mentioned are all racists.

So actually I think the fact I strongly oppose those people's values is quite a valid reason. If you think your speculative predictions are somehow more concrete than my thoughts, then you are deluded.

Am not coming back to this thread, unless, perhaps, Britain votes to remain! :T

BucksLady

maxie014 wrote: »

Its obvious innit!

We will be like somalia by xmas,industry and the banks collapse,the £ devalued many times.

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

uk1

lessavyfav wrote: »

I look at the people who are for Brexit and whether I align with their values.

Rupert Murdoch, Nigel Farage, Donald Trump, Nick Griffin, Marine Le Pen?

No thanks.

lessavyfav wrote: »

I never said that was the only reason I'd vote to remain. I have many other reasons but it is certainly a strong factor.

I think you knew that. Or if you didn't, maybe you are thick.

Am not coming back to this thread, unless, perhaps, Britain votes to remain! :T

Yes, responding to what you said rather than what you say you think must make me thick.

:cool:

uk1

PenguinJim wrote: »

Even if we assume there's no financial difference, there are still other flagrantly obvious and indisputable losses that will result from an OUT vote.

For example, today I have the right to buy a house in France, move there with my wife, and live there indefinitely. (Interestingly enough, despite my British passport and being British-born, I don't have the right to do the same thing in the UK!)

I lose that right if we leave the EU.

Fancy retiring to a nice Italian villa near the Mediterranean coast? Nope, won't be able to do that any more - unless you meet all the requirements to change nationality. (Being able to say "ciao" and wave your hands around a lot does not make one fluent in Italian, by the way. I learned that the hard way.)

How many Brits in places like Spain will be forced to return to the UK?

And let's say that you have married your European partner and are currently living, retired, with them in an EU country. Our present social security agreements with the EU countries mean that our UK pensions increase each year, as they do in the UK. Losing this agreement means our pensions will be chipped away each year by inflation. (Note that we can set up new agreements with each country individually to avoid this - I'm mentioning it here as a potential consequence.)

So, if there's no financial benefit, but we do lose a load of our current rights, we may as well vote IN, surely?

Yoy have imho valid concerns that it is understandable make you favour remaining in.

All I'd say is that at the moment the reason why you don't have answers to these issues is that the "establishmens" that will be negotiating a way through these things are all firmly on the side of wanting you to be worried and to have your vote to remain in. It is hardly suprising that they are not willing to reduce your concerns and engage in the discussion about how such transitions and fresh arrangements will be made. They want you to vote to stay in and they do not want to provide you with any reassurance that many of these issues will mostly (not completely) be resolved. Most of the issues are mirrored both ways so there is an incentive to find ways through for both sides.

To repeat for the avoidance of doubt, if I were you I'd have your concerns, and I would probably be inclined to vote to stay in.

Jeff

aspiration_2

PenguinJim wrote: »

For example, today I have the right to buy a house in France, move there with my wife, and live there indefinitely. (Interestingly enough, despite my British passport and being British-born, I don't have the right to do the same thing in the UK!)
.......
Fancy retiring to a nice Italian villa near the Mediterranean coast? Nope, won't be able to do that any more - unless you meet all the requirements to change nationality. (Being able to say "ciao" and wave your hands around a lot does not make one fluent in Italian, by the way. I learned that the hard way.)
..........
How many Brits in places like Spain will be forced to return to the UK?

Again there is not enough statistics on our expatriates living. Large number of Brits went to live in Spain, Italy etc. They mostly live on British pensions and assets. They would have probably sold their UK houses and moved the finances. So Italy and Spain would want Brits to live there and make it easier for them - even if we leave the EU. They need us. I don't think Most Europeans moving in the other direction bring much assets to UK. Most European countries do not have good benefits systems and their health care is rudimentary.

jimjames

hoc wrote: »

Vote out and... we will figure it out later? Out has not put forward any serious options on anything, the obvious annoyances with the EU have been voiced but no serious alternatives proposed. There isn't even a consistent Out, it's several branches complaining about similar things without any realistic solutions. I was willing to be convinced going into this referendum but Out's lies in the last few days (not exaggerations, but deceitful intentional lies) have made it an easy decision.

If Boris is lying about something as easily checked and obvious as the number of bananas in a bunch it makes you wonder what less obvious information he's touting isn't correct. Not suggesting that all the predictions and forecasts from either side are correct either but at least they are forecasts not claimed to be facts. If you can't even get a fact straight then it doesn't exactly help the debate.
Funnily enough I was able to buy a bunch of 5 bananas yesterday despite what Boris claimed.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/boris-johnson-claims-eu-stops-bananas-being-sold-in-bunches-of-more-than-three-that-is-not-true_uk_573b2445e4b0f0f53e36c968

typistretired

Very reasoned argument. I see David Cameron's previous advisor Steve Hilton, who helped him be Tory leader is in favour of leaving the EU.