BREXIT - Why?

BananaRepublic

jimjames wrote: »

Yet again a well reasoned and balanced post from bowlhead. I really do wonder how people can have their heads so far in the sand and blaming everyone for being biased and to not realise the impact that this decision could cause.

It was a one side post by bowlhead i.e. pro staying in. He is of course entitled to his views. It is odd how Cameron said he could vote out if he did not get what he wanted from his 'negotiations', but once he got his 'concessions', which amounted to diddly squat, he changed his tune, and now talks about a zombie apocalypse i.e. war, mass unemployment, and so on.

BananaRepublic

lessavyfav wrote: »

I look at the people who are for Brexit and whether I align with their values.

Rupert Murdoch, Nigel Farage, Donald Trump, Nick Griffin, Marine Le Pen?

No thanks.

I look at the peple who were pro European integration - the Roman Emperors, Napoleon, Hitler - and whether I align with their values. :rotfl:Yes my post is silly, but no more so than yours.

uk1

BananaRepublic wrote: »

It was a one side post by bowlhead i.e. pro staying in. He is of course entitled to his views. It is odd how Cameron said he could vote out if he did not get what he wanted from his 'negotiations', but once he got his 'concessions', which amounted to diddly squat, he changed his tune, and now talks about a zombie apocalypse i.e. war, mass unemployment, and so on.

What has struck me about the two sides in the debate I have seen developed on TV and in the press, and in threads like this, is that I have noticed a tendancy for the remainers to see things in a highly polarised way ie no downsides to remaining and only downsides to leaving, whereas the leavers seem mostly to see advantages and disadvantages to both options, but have arrived at a conclusion that out on balance it is better to exit than remaining in. Perhaps this is because younger people are tending to wish to remain but older more experienced people are tending to wish to leave.

Jeff

BananaRepublic

maxie014 wrote: »

Why is the uk so great to invest in,we dont have the euro,we are across the channel,weve got the brexit vote coming.
So why did those companies still choose to locate in the uk,not germany,belgium,france? the epicentre of the european dream.

Many companies like the low level of regulations on this country. Thus French companies find it hard to take on and then lay off staff, due to French employment laws. UK companies can hire, and lay off someone within two years without reason if they so desire. It means perversely that companies in the UK are more likely to hire when there is uncertainty about their future, because if they suffer less than expected growth, they can lay off staff.

Japanese companies have recently stated that the appeal of the UK is as a gateway to the EU, so for them our membership is a plus. Whether leaving would have a real negative impact on Japanese investment in the UK, I know not. In the short term no, but it might impact future investment e.g the next Nissan model to be built outside Japan.

bowlhead99

uk1 wrote: »

since when has "balanced" meant the same as "one sided"?

Jeff

Personally I am in the remain camp, because i think the economics look better for me personally over the next fifteen years or so while I'm at my most productive. If we leave, it might be just as good, or perhaps even better, but could take that 15 years to recover.

If I was 20 years older and already retired with a comfortable pension and not needing to worry about employment prospects or GDP forecasts, I might be happier to vote for us to get out - because when I don't need to employ anyone or sell to anyone, I would see headlines about banana curvature regulations and Turkish immigrants as being something I could do without thankyou very much.

So, we all have our motivations to vote one way or t'other and we will see what 23/6 brings.

If the EU didn't exist, then starting from scratch maybe we could build a better one, or conclude that it shouldn't be built at all. Just like if the world wasn't all doing capitalism perhaps you could have a good go at communism, or if Americans didn't all have guns you could legislate them from the beginning.

However, we are where we are and to rip it up to or burn it down and start from square one is not something you can practically do without creating a lot of pain and chaos, without any guarantee that doing it the other way is actually gong to be better.

So, while the EU is not perfect, far from it, it's something it can pay to be part of rather than deny it and try to compete with it.

BananaRepublic

uk1 wrote: »

What has struck me about the two sides in the debate I have seen developed on TV and in the press, and in threads like this, is that I have noticed a tendancy for the remainers to see things in a highly polarised way ie no downsides to remaining and only downsides to leaving, whereas the leavers seem mostly to see advantages and disadvantages to both options, but have arrived at a conclusion that out on balance it is better to exit than remaining in. Perhaps this is because younger people are tending to wish to remain but older more experienced people are tending to wish to leave.

Jeff

I think older more experienced/cynical people tend to be pro-Brexit, as you suggest. The young are more idealistic, they see the ideal of cooperation, harmony, and general loveliness as a 'good thing'.

I do worry about the lack of any real discussion about the impact of leaving be it good or bad. What will happen to the 3 million or so EU citizens already here? What will happen to Brits overseas, especially in Spain?

veryintrigued

Went to Sean Lock gig recently and he suggested that 'Anyone over 70 shouldn't be allowed to vote as they've b@ggered up the world enough'.

Made me smile.

OldBeanz

There was a large expat community in Spain before we joined the EU and there will continue to be one. The Spanish economy is in no position to turnout so many wealthy individuals.
I am sure Nisaan (which is being touted about as a company which would be put off investing if we left) was adamant that we should join the Euro. There was the same logic from many economists at that time and leaving the ERM was the start of the 14 year boom from 94-2008.

uk1

BananaRepublic wrote: »

I think older more experienced/cynical people tend to be pro-Brexit, as you suggest. The young are more idealistic, they see the ideal of cooperation, harmony, and general loveliness as a 'good thing'.

I do worry about the lack of any real discussion about the impact of leaving be it good or bad. What will happen to the 3 million or so EU citizens already here? What will happen to Brits overseas, especially in Spain?

I would add that sometimes with older age comes a degree of wisdom! For example, when starting my business I surrounded myself with people who were clever and happy to disagree with me. I learned early that I only learned by listening intently to people who disagreed with me, and people who agreed with me could hardly teach me much! I don't see many remainers listening to the opposing arguments much.

To be completely honest, with respect to your other points, things do nearly always have a way of sorting themselves out. I am bothered about some of the issues but not all. For example people traveling on holiday to the EU should simply by health insurance. English people working abroad have taken the decision to better their lives and pay taxes elsewhere, and they can I am sure look after themselves. There will always be "arrangements" and at worst a transition. I suspect for example the amount we would save by closing the door to immigrants using the NHS will provide a chunk to fund things. I'm sorry for pensioners in Spain, but not so sorry that it becomes a reason to remain. They are all adults.

I suspect that the EU people here will stay because business will ensure it. If in time a visa system was reintroduced then we will at least cherry pick those we need.

Things have a habit of sorting themselves out, particularly as we can start making our own laws again.

Jeff

OldBeanz

veryintrigued wrote: »

Went to Sean Lock gig recently and he suggested that 'Anyone over 70 shouldn't be allowed to vote as they've b@ggered up the world enough'.

Made me smile.

Anyone over 61 was subjected to rationing. I doubt whether today's generation could handle that. They do vote as well which is why there is a triple uplift lock on pensions.