Shouldnt the "Remain" vote be winning by a landslide??

bugslet

Johnsmith2016 wrote: »

Dumb as a rock

Personally, I've found mwpt to not only be one of the most polite posters on the board, but also one of the most intelligent. Don't always agree but s/he can make their points eloquently and without resorting to infantile put downs.

Robisere

Johnsmith2016 wrote: »

We were quite successful prior to 1975 as well.

Oh, really? Strikes, 3-day weeks, power cuts, unions controlled by the left wingers (some of which were card-carrying Communists) trying to bring down the country, government relying on the IMF to bail us out, sky-high interest rates, need I go on?

Don't know how old you were, but I was in my last year of Army service at the time. My parents (retired by then) relied upon me sending money home. It's always nice to look back and decide that "it was always better then". Believe me, it was not!

I am so torn on this issue. On the one hand, I want to see my country get back its sovereignity and ability to rule itself without intereference from unelected EU officials. I want to see immigration controlled and the foreign criminals running so much of the worst crime in Britain, thrown back where they came from.

On the other hand, I have grandchildren, two of whom are working, another studying engineering 3 days a week and working 2 days a week at an engineering works. The youngest is 10 and very bright, about to enter a very successful, very good Grammar school that this stupid government wants to turn into an academy. We all live in Lincolnshire, where several EU-based companies are building factories, massive Renewables places along the Humber, an area of low employment. Siemens in particular, have invested heavily in Lincoln University, engineering organisations and Further Education establishments, as well as building a huge renewables factory along the South (Lincolnshire) bank of the Humber. What happens to all of that, and the employment possibilities for my grandchildren? There will be 'knock-on' employment all across lincolnshire and East Yorkshire, where we have had to traditionally rely upon seasonal, holiday work.

So as I say, I am torn, but I talk to my grandchildren and their friends frequently and I know what they want: to Remain. the issue is very clear for them: they have grown up as EU citizens and they do not understand the problem, why leave? They have seen their educational establishments and the areas where they live, benefit from Brussels money and they have visited Europe and/or spoken with other EU kids.

One thing I do know, is that, whatever happens, if we make the wrong decision for THEM, they will never forgive us.

Johnsmith2016

I woud be more surprised if your grand children were voting any other way.

Yes, nothing is perfect we had and still have fault but we wasnt some outer mongolian island prior to 75, pound for pound the greatest empire in the history of the world

System

As well being told to do something by Cameron and big business makes you want to "stick it to the man"

mayonnaise

Any 'closer union' will need to be ratified by national governments and will probably also need treaty change.

The notion that ever closer union will be a given once we vote to remain is just another scare tactic from a leave camp that is rapidly running out of fact based arguments.

angrypirate

Filo25 wrote: »

Pathetic comment.

Lets put it another way, given the growing Euroscepticism which Brexiters claim is on the rise everywhere across Europe then I hardly think the UK is likely to be alone in opposing ever closer union is it.

The EU moving towards a core and periphery makes sense for nearly everyone quite honestly.

And if we remain and find ourselves being forced down a path we don't want to be on in future then there is nothing to stop us having another referendum, but lets not vote on this one based on rampant speculation, of what might possibly happen years down the line.

We wont have another referendum. Can you imagine a referendum on membership every time the EU makes a new decision? Not going to happen.

Besides which the EU machine has repeatedly been shown to be anti-democratic. There have already been a number of referendums on various EU wide issues by various member states. Whilst a couple of the results were accepted, most of them were either ignored or put to further referendums

Denmark 1992 - Maastricht treat rejected by 51.7% - made to vote again
Denmark 2002 - joining the Euro rejected by 53.2% - result accepted.
Ireland 2001 - Nice Treaty rejected 53.9% - made to vote again
France 2005 - EU constitution rejected by 54.9% - result ignored
Netherlands 2005 - EU constitution rejected by 61.5% - result ignored
Sweden 2003 - joining the Euro rejected by 56.1 - result accepted

It shows convincingly that the EU has history on ignoring the democratic process. I certainly wouldnt hold them to their word on us having an opt out of ever closer union - especially once we have given consent to Bremain.

angrypirate

mayonnaise wrote: »

Any 'closer union' will need to be ratified by national governments and will probably also need treaty change.

The notion that ever closer union will be a given once we vote to remain is just another scare tactic from a leave camp that is rapidly running out of fact based arguments.

No it wont. Heres a clanger of a fact for you - ever closer union is expected of every member state of the EU as it is in the constitution.

mayonnaise

angrypirate wrote: »

No it wont. Heres a clanger of a fact for you - ever closer union is expected of every member state of the EU as it is in the constitution.

So what are they going to do if we refuse to sign up and ratify any of these 'closer union' initiatives? Expel us from the EU?:)

Really, stop scaremongering already.

mwpt

Robisere wrote: »

So as I say, I am torn, but I talk to my grandchildren and their friends frequently and I know what they want: to Remain. the issue is very clear for them: they have grown up as EU citizens and they do not understand the problem, why leave? They have seen their educational establishments and the areas where they live, benefit from Brussels money and they have visited Europe and/or spoken with other EU kids.

Nice post. I tend to get a little carried away arguing my view because it is easy to picture your opponents as all of one mind scared of certain things. I should remind myself more often that there are also plenty of very reasonable people who will be voting out for various different reasons.

I'm in the my 30s (the latter half now) and being an immigrant of EU (and UK) heritage myself, I am one of those who has only known the UK as part of the EU. Maybe that shapes my views and is why I find it hard(ish) to understand.

On top of that, my industry, perhaps like your grandchildren's futures is very much better with the UK inside the EU. The tech sector in London is absolutely huge and the word on the "street" (yes, even geeks have street) is that leaving the EU will be massively detrimental to this industry. Startups for one are by their nature agile, and London is the place currently to attract the brightest from across Europe. It's not immigrants taking jobs it is immigrants creating jobs, creating firms, growing firms, fueling the whole sector. Again the word is this is likely to shift to Europe if the UK leaves.

Filo25

angrypirate wrote: »

We wont have another referendum. Can you imagine a referendum on membership every time the EU makes a new decision? Not going to happen.

Besides which the EU machine has repeatedly been shown to be anti-democratic. There have already been a number of referendums on various EU wide issues by various member states. Whilst a couple of the results were accepted, most of them were either ignored or put to further referendums

Denmark 1992 - Maastricht treat rejected by 51.7% - made to vote again
Denmark 2002 - joining the Euro rejected by 53.2% - result accepted.
Ireland 2001 - Nice Treaty rejected 53.9% - made to vote again
France 2005 - EU constitution rejected by 54.9% - result ignored
Netherlands 2005 - EU constitution rejected by 61.5% - result ignored
Sweden 2003 - joining the Euro rejected by 56.1 - result accepted

It shows convincingly that the EU has history on ignoring the democratic process. I certainly wouldnt hold them to their word on us having an opt out of ever closer union - especially once we have given consent to Bremain.

We can have a referendum anytime we want to, its not an EU decision.

Its also up to the UK government whether we choose to accept or ignore the results of that referendum its not for the EU to decide, much though many on here view them as some all powerful body.

I will be voting to Remain and even I would support a further referendum if we found ourselves transferring SIGNIFICANT powers to the EU in future without the popular support of the people of the UK.