The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

mollycat

elantan wrote: »

I take it that was an old referal to the nazis ... how original never heard that before

All Nationalism......it has the same basic traits.

Explained this before earlier in thread, once again, pay attention!

ProDave

Pro independence supporters should read this for a reality check http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/10/european-commission-independent-scotland-would-have-join-queue/

In particular these two paragraphs:

The most recent Scottish Government figures showed Scotland has a public spending deficit of 9.5 per cent of its GDP, compared to four per cent for the UK a whole and 7.2 per cent for Greece, which has been forced by the EU to impose extreme austerity.....

Now it's time for the SNP to be honest with voters - an independent Scotland would have to join the queue. Independence would mean leaving our biggest trading partner, committing to the euro, and even deeper austerity.

TrickyTree83

ProDave wrote: »

Pro independence supporters should read this for a reality check http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/10/european-commission-independent-scotland-would-have-join-queue/

In particular these two paragraphs:

Echoing what rational, reasoned, logical and evidence based posters on this thread say.

It astounds me how some people can be so blind.

AnotherJoe

Shakethedisease wrote: »

As to your question is it fair ? Imo of course it is. There have been two contradictory referendums in the last two years in Scotland. It appears Scots wish to stay both in the UK and the EU. This is no longer possible, so needs resolved and the only way to resolve this is to ask the electorate.

Asking the electorate if they want to have their cake and eat it, is not a solution, since that choice is not possible. Might as well have a referendum if they want the moon on a stick and a pink unicorn.

The timing isn't ideal, but one has to work with the cards one has, and it's obviously a much better option for Scotland to stay in the single market, rather than leaving and then having to rejoin with all the consequent faff,time and effort that would take. Simply to implement,
:rotfl:
then reverse exactly the same conditions.

The first thing wrong with your plan is, that is not an option.

The second thing wrong with your plan is, that is not an option.

"I realise thats only one wrong thing, but I thought it was so wrong, it merited a second mention"

Ask the EU if it is an option. Oh NS already did that and was told "no".
FWIW leaving and then rejoining (your Plan wouldn't work either, because the Spaniards wouldn't have it ...... and neither would the Scots when they were told they'd have to convert the money in their bank accounts to Euros !


The wider question however won't be on the EU. The last referendum was independence v's the union. The next one will be more along the lines of independence v's the Tories.

The message going out from the SNP at the present time is 'the Tories think they can do anything they like with Scotland and get away with it'. Now you might not agree with that of course, but that's the message that's being repeated and sent out right now and it's one that's likely only to get much louder.

Why is that any different for London, or Cornwall or any particular constituency.?

This is why I'm pointing out the political fallout which is going to happen from fishing, agriculture, human rights/ECJ and the Great Repeal Bill ( take note antrobus and string ). All of the above are going to cause massive ructions, since Holyrood won't vote ANY of them through.

Holyrood doesn't get to vote them through,the UK doesn't work like that with Holyrood getting a veto like some poxy Belgian region that can hold the EU to ransom. . As should be the case since the UK as a whole voted leave and thats whats happening.

The vote wasn't "do you want your street to leave?" London is leaving as well. More people in London than Scotland. Its all of the UK. Not a patchwork quilt of constituencies. And Scotland voted to stay in the UK so they get to do what the UK voted for. If you now want a divorce as a result of unreasonable behaviour, bear in mind Mr EU next door wont be putting you up in his house.

There are big issues still coming down the line which are only going to enhance the SNP's current narrative. And May really needs to stop listening to folks who must be telling her that independence isn't going to happen or is a pipe dream so she can do what she likes without recourse.

The only Big Issue will the one that many more folks in Scotland will be selling if they leave the UK.
There is no choice to leave the UK and stay in the EU. Back of the queue to join, fix your economy, take the Euro , and the Spanish will be making sure they stay at the back "pour encourage les [STRIKE]Catalonians[/STRIKE] autres".

Enterprise_1701C

But they want independence and they want it NOW!

The SNP seems to be a bunch of toddlers, they want what they cannot have (mainly because those beastly voters that they are meant to represent said no last time), if we spoon fed them with independence they would probably spit it out and say they want their mummy and for her to carry on paying their bills so they can live the way they want to. After all, when you leave home you have to learn to be responsible for your own bills, your own mistakes, in this case you would not be able to come running home. And then you will announce that you are marrying the EU because you don't like being on your own, and then you will suddenly realise you have made a massive mistake because you give everything to that marriage and they will just take away your name and your money, along with anything else they can get.

elantan

mollycat wrote: »

All Nationalism......it has the same basic traits.

Explained this before earlier in thread, once again, pay attention!

Have you ever considered National is a different word from Nationalist or nationalism ... just curious like

Shakethedisease

AnotherJoe wrote: »

The only Big Issue will the one that many more folks in Scotland will be selling if they leave the UK.
There is no choice to leave the UK and stay in the EU. Back of the queue to join, fix your economy, take the Euro , and the Spanish will be making sure they stay at the back "pour encourage les [STRIKE]Catalonians[/STRIKE] autres".

These aren't my plans. They are my own interpretation of what will happen next.

1) SNP MP's/MSP's and other interested parties like the Greens are now openly over the last few days now talking about a second referendum/vote. So it's going to happen.

2) If you are relying on internal Spanish politics to stop Scottish independence happening and that's all you have... then you're in trouble already.

3) If you're relying on the argument that 'Scotland won't be in the EU or Single Market' as something that will stop Scottish independence as Theresa May keeps saying... then again you're in deep trouble given Scotland really has nothing to lose there. It's an argument that produces titters all round in Scotland.. rather than one to be taken very seriously at this point in time.

The media has kicked up a gear also over the last few days. I think they've jumped the gun massively. There is no queue to join the EU, nor is there any need to adopt the Euro. And in fact Scotland wouldn't meet the criteria for using the Euro for years yet anyway. And in any case there's a fair chance Sturgeon will put EEA/EFTA options as well as EU membership out as potentials to pursue following an independence vote. Until UK/EU negotiations get going we have no idea which option would suit Scotland best.

The currency question is likely to be answered as far as it's going to within the next few months. It will be attacked just as ferociously as the currency union was, but at least the SNP/Yes campaigns will be well ready for it this time.

Dr Paul Monaghan MP ‏@_PaulMonaghan 6h6 hours ago "An in-depth plan is being drawn up for an independent Scotland to have its own currency". #EU #Brexit

Professor Andrew Hughes Hallett, a former consultant to the World Bank and International Monetary Fund, is in charge of the policy work which will be presented later this year to the SNP leader.

“So not only do we have a strong case for whatever option is put forward but it is backed by the proper infrastructure so the case is entirely secure and that the Scottish Government can put it forward.”
The source said he was in favour of a separate Scottish pound and that it should be supported by a currency board which could make decisions over how it was introduced and maintained.
Its value could either be determined by floating the currency freely on the world markets, or it could be tied to sterling, the euro or a "basket" of international currencies in order to reduce the uncertainties of a fluctuating exchange rate.

http://www.thenational.scot/politics/15054500.Plan_for_a_new_Scottish_pound__likely__to_be_recommended_by_SNP_Growth_Commission__insider_says/?ref=ar

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Echoing what rational, reasoned, logical and evidence based posters on this thread say.

It astounds me how some people can be so blind.

It constantly astounds me that folks as obviously intelligent as you are believe there's such as thing as a queue.

The ONLY route now to either EU or Single Market membership is independence. Sturgeon still has nothing to lose calling another vote, so she will. :cool:

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

It constantly astounds me that folks as obviously intelligent as you are believe there's such as thing as a queue.

The ONLY route now to either EU or Single Market membership is independence. Sturgeon still has nothing to lose calling another vote, so she will. :cool:

I don't see how Nicola and the SNP believe there is a mandate for Scotland to remain in the EU, since that wasn't what the question was. Their claim as I understand it is that the 62% wanted to remain, well in context, they wanted the UK to remain in the EU. There is no evidence that Scots want Scotland to remain in the EU irrespective of it's relationship with the UK. They've just picked up that ball and ran with it, I would expect nothing less, but let us not pretend that the UK referendum was indicative of Scots wanting to remain in the EU regardless of the consequences.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

I don't see how Nicola and the SNP believe there is a mandate for Scotland to remain in the EU, since that wasn't what the question was. Their claim as I understand it is that the 62% wanted to remain, well in context, they wanted the UK to remain in the EU. There is no evidence that Scots want Scotland to remain in the EU irrespective of it's relationship with the UK. They've just picked up that ball and ran with it, I would expect nothing less, but let us not pretend that the UK referendum was indicative of Scots wanting to remain in the EU regardless of the consequences.

All Scottish party leaders in the run up to the Brexit vote, including Ruth Davidson were united in their assertions that leaving the Single Market would be absolutely catastrophic in economic terms both for the UK and for Scotland.

The SNP had a clause in their May 2016 manifesto as you know stating what would likely happen should Scotland be taken out of the EU.

Remaining in the Single market and that a second independence vote is now on the cards given the above and the way Scots voted at the ballot box ( both votes within weeks of each other ) should not come as any sort of surprise now. Regardless of the fact Ruth Davidson has had some sort of weird 180 degree rethink since, and Scottish Labour and Lib Dems are now totally at a loss is of no consequence given what the ballot box results were. Flip flopping as Davidson has just displays a complete lack of principles.

But please be honest at least about the EU rather than parroting spun articles from the Telegraph. You know as well as I do there is no queue, just meeting criteria. And there will be no Euro for Scotland for many years, if at all should independence occur.

Sturgeon's main economic task now is selling full Single Market membership in whatever form is deemed necessary in order to keep Scotland within it. Because unlike flip floppers such as Davidson, Dugdale and Rennie, she's kept her principles consistent throughout, as has Harvie. And genuinely believes that Scotland out of the Single Market and within a UK that's also out of it, governed by a right wing Tory govt in charge of things like workers rights and talking about 'Singapore'.. is a recipe for complete disaster waiting to happen.

Scotland as I said is in 'wait and see' mode for now and in my own opinion this comment below seen elsewhere is probably the way things will go. Unless the EU come out guns hot with 100% assurances which to be fair is risky for them in diplomatic/negotiating terms.

EFTA/EEA is going to be sold as a transitional middle way for an indy Scotland between Brexit UK and full EU membership cutting us off from our main market of rUK.

It's a compromise. And it's completely sellable to the electorate