The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

mrginge

Shakethedisease wrote: »

As for the rest. I was a Yes in 2014, I personally don't need convinced of anything. But in there is debate to be had, especially for those who make assumptions on matters where they are a bit misinformed or unaware of points of interest. Either you want to debate, or you can scroll past and talk about something else.
All the sentences beginning with 'You' above are a surefire way of trying to personalise debate off the issues being generally discussed and on to a posting individual. Doesn't work with me am afraid. I'm here to talk with people interested in politics etc. Not me and your opinions on me. So lets move on from that.

There doesn't appear to be a debate. There are statements of subjective opinion backed up by selective facts.
However, a debate requires a challenge and a response. It appears that challenges are ignored and responses not forthcoming. This topic is not a one way street. If the aim is to enhance the independence argument then such a strategy actually weakens it.

Please therefore do not suggest that any attempt to question your opinion is personalising matters. That is a weak argument and purely another deflection tactic.

Valid points regarding the plan and strategy for independence are raised over and over again by multiple posters. The same points which will inevitably be raised in any independence campaign. Some answers need to be provided.

Does this below sound like May is planning on handing devolved adminstrations control and further powers to you ? Honestly now...

It sounds very much like her priority is the UK as a whole (as we would expect as the UK prime minister) but she will work within the current devolved framework. Where is there any statement around reversing devolved power in that quote?


Finally, let's debate a very simple question. One which I have raised before but of course not had a response to.

Is it fair to the electorate to ask them to choose between one unknown model and one which is still under negotiation?

mollycat

.string. wrote: »

So - back to the "jousting" for a while.

I saw the "debate" last night and was shocked to see the hate spilling from the SNP speakers. Much was said that was very silly, but it was, basically, a whinge cultivation session as far as they were concerned. Those under their thrall will have loved it but probably can't see how foolish it all was.

The whole business over the matter of "Parliamentary Sovereignty" has been a bit of a damp squid. Personally, I was happy with the Court rulings on this and also happy that the negotiation tactics of the Government are not hampered by ludicrous amendments. Also the final business on the final vote is the right result in my opinion. It is now not just the EU that can the play the argument of "agree to this or the European Parliament will not agree it", the UK Government can also do that with more credibility than before when asking for a vote would have been just an option.

As far as a Neverendum being called, I still think that if that were tried it would (and should) be rejected on the grounds that (at least)
1 There has been a referendum recently
2 The Referendum would damage the negotiations and thus the economic future of the UK, including the Scots within the Union
3 There is no clear appetite in Scotland for a new Referendum - see the article Shakey recently incompletely quoted
4 Scots need to see all the facts before making an informed judgement

The Indy argument on fishing is so clearly based on what is now called Fake News and cynically artificial paranoia.

100% spot on, (as ever!).

These people have no concern, (or solution), to the division created by ongoing demands for a 2nd referendum and the associated consequences of the manufactured grudge they broadcast every day.

These people would have no concern, (nor a solution), to the division and discord in any future imaginary iScotland, the loss of influence, the reality of a subsidy free economy, etc etc.

They simply want their way....like a child.

elantan

.string. wrote: »

So - back to the "jousting" for a while.

I saw the "debate" last night and was shocked to see the hate spilling from the SNP speakers. Much was said that was very silly, but it was, basically, a whinge cultivation session as far as they were concerned. Those under their thrall will have loved it but probably can't see how foolish it all was.

The whole business over the matter of "Parliamentary Sovereignty" has been a bit of a damp squid. Personally, I was happy with the Court rulings on this and also happy that the negotiation tactics of the Government are not hampered by ludicrous amendments. Also the final business on the final vote is the right result in my opinion. It is now not just the EU that can the play the argument of "agree to this or the European Parliament will not agree it", the UK Government can also do that with more credibility than before when asking for a vote would have been just an option.

As far as a Neverendum being called, I still think that if that were tried it would (and should) be rejected on the grounds that (at least)
1 There has been a referendum recently
2 The Referendum would damage the negotiations and thus the economic future of the UK, including the Scots within the Union
3 There is no clear appetite in Scotland for a new Referendum - see the article Shakey recently incompletely quoted
4 Scots need to see all the facts before making an informed judgement

The Indy argument on fishing is so clearly based on what is now called Fake News and cynically artificial paranoia.

did you watch the treatment of the devolved countries representatives the night before ? Even Ian Murray wasnt happy

last nights behaviour from the SNP was in response to that and other treatment they have received ... you can only kick someone so many times before they kick back

glad to see you back xxx

mrginge

elantan wrote: »

did you watch the treatment of the devolved countries representatives the night before ? Even Ian Murray wasnt happy

last nights behaviour from the SNP was in response to that and other treatment they have received ... you can only kick someone so many times before they kick back

glad to see you back xxx

Do NI and Wales MPs get the same treatment?

Could it be that this is more to do with the behaviour and strategy of the party itself rather than it's geographical location?

I don't know, let's debate it.

Shakethedisease

mrginge wrote: »

There doesn't appear to be a debate. There are statements of subjective opinion backed up by selective facts.
However, a debate requires a challenge and a response. It appears that challenges are ignored and responses not forthcoming. This topic is not a one way street. If the aim is to enhance the independence argument then such a strategy actually weakens it.

Please therefore do not suggest that any attempt to question your opinion is personalising matters. That is a weak argument and purely another deflection tactic.

Valid points regarding the plan and strategy for independence are raised over and over again by multiple posters. The same points which will inevitably be raised in any independence campaign. Some answers need to be provided.



It sounds very much like her priority is the UK as a whole (as we would expect as the UK prime minister) but she will work within the current devolved framework. Where is there any statement around reversing devolved power in that quote?


Finally, let's debate a very simple question. One which I have raised before but of course not had a response to.

Is it fair to the electorate to ask them to choose between one unknown model and one which is still under negotiation?

I concentrate my posts on issues not you or anyone else. Beginning every sentence with the word 'You' isn't debate. It's virtual prod in the chest stuff about what you think I think and putting words and opinions in my mouth.

As to your question is it fair ? Imo of course it is. There have been two contradictory referendums in the last two years in Scotland. It appears Scots wish to stay both in the UK and the EU. This is no longer possible, so needs resolved and the only way to resolve this is to ask the electorate. The timing isn't ideal, but one has to work with the cards one has, and it's obviously a much better option for Scotland to stay in the single market, rather than leaving and then having to rejoin with all the consequent faff,time and effort that would take. Simply to implement, then reverse exactly the same conditions.

The wider question however won't be on the EU. The last referendum was independence v's the union. The next one will be more along the lines of independence v's the Tories. The message going out from the SNP at the present time is 'the Tories think they can do anything they like with Scotland and get away with it'. Now you might not agree with that of course, but that's the message that's being repeated and sent out right now and it's one that's likely only to get much louder.

This is why I'm pointing out the political fallout which is going to happen from fishing, agriculture, human rights/ECJ and the Great Repeal Bill ( take note antrobus and string ). All of the above are going to cause massive ructions, since Holyrood won't vote ANY of them through. And will only serve to add to the SNP/Greens and any future Yes campaigns benefit should Westminster move to impose any of these on Holyrood regardless.

There are big issues still coming down the line which are only going to enhance the SNP's current narrative. And May really needs to stop listening to folks who must be telling her that independence isn't going to happen or is a pipe dream so she can do what she likes without recourse.

Scotland is in 'wait and see' mode at the moment and will be for a while yet. This is only one poll and no doubt over the next year or so polls will swing back and forth. However every time May does announce something which appears to ignore Scotland's voting electorate support for independence edges up.

With this in mind, Mrs May would be foolish to ignore this poll. She has promised on a number of occasions to deliver a Brexit that “works for the whole of the UK”, but we are yet to see any real evidence of this approach. A willingness to consider compromise for Scotland on issues such as immigration and trade would be a good start.

If she does not, the willingness of her Government to simply ride roughshod over the will of the Scottish people risks breaking up the UK. Ms Sturgeon has been telling the Prime Minister this for months – perhaps this latest Herald poll will encourage Mrs May to take the matter more seriously.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/opinion/15076294.Herald_View__Independence_poll_should_be_food_for_thought_for_May/

Shakethedisease

mrginge wrote: »

Do NI and Wales MPs get the same treatment?

Could it be that this is more to do with the behaviour and strategy of the party itself rather than it's geographical location?

I don't know, let's debate it.

Yes they did get treated in the same manner. On a debate on devolved issues, Wales got 1 MP speaking, NI 1 and the SNP 2 one of which was cut off before she made her points. A Conservative MP got more time than them all put together.

.string.

elantan wrote: »

did you watch the treatment of the devolved countries representatives the night before ? Even Ian Murray wasnt happy

last nights behaviour from the SNP was in response to that and other treatment they have received ... you can only kick someone so many times before they kick back

glad to see you back xxx

Thank you for the greeting. I

I've watched a fair bit over the last few days but did not notice what you described, although I have noticed that patience is wearing a bit thin. Maybe that's what you mean.

I can understand any frustration that is building up because, like it or lump it, we are all in the Brexit boat and success in the negotiable for the UK is vital to all our well-being, whatever our political persuasions. Markets once lost tend to be lost, not in some sort of parked mode and from the separatists' viewpoint I would have thought that rising, Phoenix-wise, from the ashes might have poetic attraction, but better, to use a different analogy, to have a sound runway to take off from .

Not just the SNP but many die-hard serial remainers need to get a grip on the damage they are doing to their own future.

As an ex-remainer myself who thought the referendum result was misguided, I want to make the best of our new situation and go after the new opportunities which are released by leaving the EU. In that sense I want to prove myself wrong.

mrginge

Shakethedisease wrote: »

I concentrate my posts on issues not you or anyone else. Beginning every sentence with the word 'You' isn't debate. It's virtual prod in the chest stuff about what you think I think and putting words and opinions in my mouth.

As to your question is it fair ? Imo of course it is. There have been two contradictory referendums in the last two years in Scotland. It appears Scots wish to stay both in the UK and the EU. This is no longer possible, so needs resolved and the only way to resolve this is to ask the electorate. The timing isn't ideal, but one has to work with the cards one has, and it's obviously a much better option for Scotland to stay in the single market, rather than leaving and then having to rejoin with all the consequent faff,time and effort that would take. Simply to implement, then reverse exactly the same conditions.

The wider question however won't be on the EU. The last referendum was independence v's the union. The next one will be more along the lines of independence v's the Tories. The message going out from the SNP at the present time is 'the Tories think they can do anything they like with Scotland and get away with it'. Now you might not agree with that of course, but that's the message that's being repeated and sent out right now and it's one that's likely only to get much louder.

This is why I'm pointing out the political fallout which is going to happen from fishing, agriculture, human rights/ECJ and the Great Repeal Bill ( take note antrobus and string ). All of the above are going to cause massive ructions, since Holyrood won't vote ANY of them through. And will only serve to add to the SNP/Greens and any future Yes campaigns benefit should Westminster move to impose any of these on Holyrood regardless.

There are big issues still coming down the line which are only going to enhance the SNP's current narrative. And May really needs to stop listening to folks who must be telling her that independence isn't going to happen or is a pipe dream so she can do what she likes without recourse.

Scotland is in 'wait and see' mode at the moment and will be for a while yet. This is only one poll and no doubt over the next year or so polls will swing back and forth. However every time May does announce something which appears to ignore Scotland's voting electorate support for independence edges up.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/opinion/15076294.Herald_View__Independence_poll_should_be_food_for_thought_for_May/

Truly awful.
No positive messages about Scotlands future. No answers to the real questions.
Vote Indy because we hate the tories. Awful.

There's no way a campaign like that can succeed.

Terrible negative campaign of hate.

No compromise, no flexibility. Nothing other than give us exactly what we want.
Which other country would want to deal with a SNP govt that operated that way. Certainly not the EU countries.

mollycat

.string. wrote: »

As an ex-remainer myself who thought the referendum result was misguided, I want to make the best of our new situation and go after the new opportunities which are released by leaving the EU. In that sense I want to prove myself wrong.

Which is what most (ex) remainers are doing, including myself.

Why others on this thread cannot do the same and accept democracy beats me.

Shakethedisease

mrginge wrote: »

Truly awful.
No positive messages about Scotlands future. No answers to the real questions.
Vote Indy because we hate the tories. Awful.

There's no way a campaign like that can succeed.

Terrible negative campaign of hate.

No compromise, no flexibility. Nothing other than give us exactly what we want.
Which other country would want to deal with a SNP govt that operated that way. Certainly not the EU countries.

Nope. The Yes campaign ( and again I'm talking purely about campaigning here ) spent the best part of three years being happy clappy, 100% positive, keeping dignified silences and being continually on the defensive on every single issue that came up.
The Tories then spent the first half of 2015 and the last GE campaign in faux hysterics over Scottish MP's and plastering billboards all over the place portraying the former First Minister of Scotland as a thief.

Well past time for the gloves to come off imo. And the SNP have hopefully taken notes from the most recent masterclasses in negative campaigning.. otherwise known as the last Conservative party General Election campaign which succeeded well beyond all expectations, and both Leave/Remain Brexit campaigns where the biggest negative campaign won.

Scotland's had since 2011 to extensively mull over the positives of independence, it's now time some of the negatives of the union were brought into sharp focus too. Because without a doubt any future No side will be repeating the same negative campaign messages as in 2014. Time to answer back far more robustly than previously.