The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

elantan

kabayiri wrote: »

A point I'm not clear on.

What's the point in voting for independence anchored to staying in the EU, if you don't know for definite if the EU 27 will accept your application; or indeed any timescale behind it?

The alternative is to be deffinately out of Europe, after being told in 2014 the only way to stay in Europe was to vote No ...

Thrugelmir

elantan wrote: »

The alternative is to be deffinately out of Europe, after being told in 2014 the only way to stay in Europe was to vote No ...

Times change and move forward............ Sturgeon unfortunately is stuck in a hamster wheel.

mrginge

kabayiri wrote: »

A point I'm not clear on.

What's the point in voting for independence anchored to staying in the EU, if you don't know for definite if the EU 27 will accept your application; or indeed any timescale behind it?

A good point. I made the same many pages ago.

A response was not forthcoming....

elantan

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Times change and move forward............ Sturgeon unfortunately is stuck in a hamster wheel.

In what way ?

mrginge

It's funny to look back on this thread.

mrginge wrote: »

There is precisely zero chance that Scotland will leave the uk within two years.

That was September last year.

Shakethedisease wrote: »

I'm sure you know better than Professor of Politics and eminent Psephologist/correctly predicted the result of the last GE from exit polls John Curtice does.

That was the response.
So we can now say that given Nicola's dithering can-kicking, it's clear that I DO know more than the above.

And finally....

mrginge wrote: »

In this case yes I do.

Anyone can say '50:50' chance. It's a meaningless statement.

There is no chance because a referendum will only serious come back on the table once Brexit terms are finalised.

...or are you expecting the high priestess to call a referendum on a subject where there is no clarity on what either option looks like?
Forgive me but I don't believe the Scottish people are so stupid as to vote to exit a union until they know what that union is going to look like and what their alternative independent model looks like.

If only I'd put this on twitter perhaps shakey would have given it more credence...

Shakethedisease

kabayiri wrote: »

A point I'm not clear on.

What's the point in voting for independence anchored to staying in the EU, if you don't know for definite if the EU 27 will accept your application; or indeed any timescale behind it?

Because a lot of voting for independence is based on getting rid of Tories and Tory policies.

The political is overtaking the economic arguments. As it did for Brexit.

I backed Better Together but now I am for SNP and independence

In 2014, I spoke on behalf of the Better Together campaign.
Independence won’t be easy. We have a big deficit, as does the UK. Many other states in the EU and around the globe have been in this position. But what is our choice? More austerity and dependence on a Conservative Government or beginning a discussion about how to close the GDP gap without neo-liberal fantasies of low wages and corporation tax?

The Conservatives look set to be in power at Westminster for the next three general elections. We can either be dragged in their direction of travel for a couple of decades: great for the tiny privileged elites, a downward spiral for everyone else. Or we can create our own journey.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/opinion/15070391.Agenda__I_backed_Better_Together_but_now_I_am_for_SNP_and_independence/?ref=mr&lp=1

Dailly was one of the most prominent BetterTogether spokespeople out there during the first indy ref. He's now willing to put all that to the side for the sake of what he sees as a better political future than Westminster Tories can provide. He's far from alone, especially in Scottish Labour circles. Brexit being the catalyst. Can you see the common thread in both these articles ?

Meanwhile the leadership of the Labour Party in Scotland continues to exhibit signs of a Dodo complex on the constitutional question. Several high-profile and articulate Labour supporters strongly in favour of Better Together last time around have come round to Yes. Significantly, they appear not to have been persuaded yet of the economic case but have become sickened by the right-wing politics prevailing in the UK. Their views are reflected in those of a much stronger Labour for Independence movement, the group harassed and intimidated by its own party in 2014.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15070407.Kevin_McKenna__It_is_all_coming_into_the_mix_for_second_independence_vote/?ref=mr&lp=6

In fact I'd say for a lot of Scots voters that the EU issue is secondary. It's more the thought of being outside the EU AND governed by the current Tories for the forseeable future. While the economic arguments will certainly centre on the EU/Single Market. The political one will centre on Westminster, Johnson, May, Fox and Davies. A lot of Scots fear overt right wing politics.

Shakethedisease

mrginge wrote: »

It's funny to look back on this thread.



That was September last year.

That was the response.
So we can now say that given Nicola's dithering can-kicking, it's clear that I DO know more than the above.

And finally....

If only I'd put this on twitter perhaps shakey would have given it more credence...

What a load of nonsense you folks speak about Twitter. Ruth Davidson herself ran a campaign based on being the opposition. She knows there's no chance of getting in as First Minister in Holyrood. Those of you clinging onto this hope like desperate limpets really are deluded.

She's also absolutely terrified of a second referendum or vote in Scotland. Because unlike some posters here, she recognises the juggernaught that the Yes campaign became last time round only just stopped in time. Well it's kicking into gear again, and next time round Davidson and unionists have very little indeed to counter it with. Rumours are that Davidson doesn't even want to lead any sort of BetterTogether campaign for a second vote for fear of it destorying her career.

Nicola is doing the right thing by waiting. She's nothing to lose by letting Brexit consequences be seen by Scots for what the disaster they may well be first for jobs and businesses who depend on Single Market membership.

ProDave

It's funny. Saw a friend today who voted for independence. But she ALSO voted to leave the EU and now would NOT vote for independence if it meant rejoining (or staying in the EU.

CLAPTON

Shakethedisease wrote: »

What a load of nonsense you folks speak about Twitter. Ruth Davidson herself ran a campaign based on being the opposition. She knows there's no chance of getting in as First Minister in Holyrood. Those of you clinging onto this hope like desperate limpets really are deluded.

She's also absolutely terrified of a second referendum or vote in Scotland. Because unlike some posters here, she recognises the juggernaught that the Yes campaign became last time round only just stopped in time. Well it's kicking into gear again, and next time round Davidson and unionists have very little indeed to counter it with. Rumours are that Davidson doesn't even want to lead any sort of BetterTogether campaign for a second vote for fear of it destorying her career.

if you believe in the juggernaught effect (the SNP new alt truth and to be endlessly repeated) then obviously Iscotland would win an immediate referendum

It seems to me that it is dithering Nicola that doesn't want a new referendum

Nicola is doing the right thing by waiting. She's nothing to lose by letting Brexit consequences be seen by Scots for what the disaster they may well be first for jobs and businesses who depend on Single Market membership.

Dithering nicola has everything to lose by waiting. as the brexit may not be the disaster you hope and wish for. Suppose it works out OK?

mrginge

CLAPTON wrote: »

Dithering nicola has everything to lose by waiting. as the brexit may not be the disaster you hope and wish for. Suppose it works out OK?

You'd think that Nicola would have learnt that claiming Brexit will be a disaster leaves you open to ridicule when things don't turn out to be anywhere near as bad as you described.

All the recent comments from European leaders (i.e people who matter) are positive statements about getting a deal done based on the plans outlined by TM.

Doesn't look good for shakey's desperate hopes for failure.