The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

elantan

ProDave wrote: »

It's funny. Saw a friend today who voted for independence. But she ALSO voted to leave the EU and now would NOT vote for independence if it meant rejoining (or staying in the EU.

I've met people like this myself

Thrugelmir

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Because a lot of voting for independence is based on getting rid of Tories and Tory policies.

Which precisely is why the whole concept is stuck in the mire. Just a lot of words without real substance. There's no proper plan that is inclusive of everyone. Irrespective of political view. Not that people are that bothered about politics on a daily basis.

Shakethedisease

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Which precisely is why the whole concept is stuck in the mire. Just a lot of words without real substance. There's no proper plan that is inclusive of everyone. Irrespective of political view. Not that people are that bothered about politics on a daily basis.

But that is my point. Folks like yourself going on about concepts, plans, agenda's and Sturgeon dithering. It's far less complicated than that.

In short Sturgeon has nothing to lose by calling another vote. Because the alternative is doing nothing and being out of the EU and/or Single Market anyway. So she'll call one. This is a very simple and straightforward choice.
When it is called, the economic arguments will be dominated by Brexit and the Single Market. The political by the fact that the Conservatives are in power in Westminster, and a more right wing Conservative party than has been until June last year.

The political argument Sturgeon could win now easily. Indeed going by recent defections from even high profile Better Together activists to independence and even SNP membership this does seem to be the case. There does not need to be any sort of grand plan in place for people to vote against a political entity they dislike ( see Brexit vote).

It's the Brexit/Single Market economic questions that are still unknowns and is why it is best for Sturgeon to hold her horses for now until they are. The EU/EEA and EFTA are all likely to be there in terms of options in some form. Waiting till things become clearer is the obvious most sensible thing to do.

I reiterate again though, that Sturgeon has nothing to lose by calling a vote if Scotland is to be taken out of the Single Market. It really is as simple as that..because doing nothing would mean Scotland out of the Single Market anyway.

Shakethedisease

CLAPTON wrote: »

if you believe in the juggernaught effect (the SNP new alt truth and to be endlessly repeated) then obviously Iscotland would win an immediate referendum

It seems to me that it is dithering Nicola that doesn't want a new referendum

Dithering nicola has everything to lose by waiting. as the brexit may not be the disaster you hope and wish for. Suppose it works out OK?

Suppose it doesn't ? And Sturgeon did nothing ?

mrginge

Shakethedisease wrote: »

But that is my point. Folks like yourself going on about concepts, plans, agenda's and Sturgeon dithering. It's far less complicated than that.

In short Sturgeon has nothing to lose by calling another vote. Because the alternative is doing nothing and being out of the EU and/or Single Market anyway. So she'll call one. This is a very simple and straightforward choice.
When it is called, the economic arguments will be dominated by Brexit and the Single Market. The political by the fact that the Conservatives are in power in Westminster, and a more right wing Conservative party than has been until June last year.

The political argument Sturgeon could win now easily. Indeed going by recent defections from even high profile Better Together activists to independence and even SNP membership this does seem to be the case. There does not need to be any sort of grand plan in place for people to vote against a political entity they dislike ( see Brexit vote).

It's the Brexit/Single Market economic questions that are still unknowns and is why it is best for Sturgeon to hold her horses for now until they are. The EU/EEA and EFTA are all likely to be there in terms of options in some form. Waiting till things become clearer is the obvious most sensible thing to do.

I reiterate again though, that Sturgeon has nothing to lose by calling a vote if Scotland is to be taken out of the Single Market. It really is as simple as that..because doing nothing would mean Scotland out of the Single Market anyway.

Scotland is to be taken out of the SM. Surely you've already read this on twitter?

CLAPTON

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Suppose it doesn't ? And Sturgeon did nothing ?

so you doubt the juggernaught effect and think brexit will be a success

in which case you need to act NOW before its too late for us both

ProDave

Shakethedisease wrote: »

I reiterate again though, that Sturgeon has nothing to lose by calling a vote if Scotland is to be taken out of the Single Market. It really is as simple as that..because doing nothing would mean Scotland out of the Single Market anyway.

Nicoliar has stated several times that she will not call indyref#2 until the polls consistently show 60% support. she know if they lost another referendum, the SNP and the whole independence thing would be toast for at least a "generation"

but hen The SNP think a "generation" is 3 years. Well they must do because I voted in the "once in a generation" referendum less than 3 years ago.

kabayiri

CLAPTON wrote: »

...
Dithering nicola has everything to lose by waiting. as the brexit may not be the disaster you hope and wish for. Suppose it works out OK?

Dithering Nicola could even be outfoxed by events driven by EU politicians closely linked to the Brexit process.

If there is a move to negotiated settlement after the initial war of words, any dissenting words from Nicola would be seen as disruptive.

It'd be pretty easy to paint her as an arch manipulator with a narrow separatist cause.

kabayiri

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Because a lot of voting for independence is based on getting rid of Tories and Tory policies.
...

You have previously told us that independence is bigger than any one political party. Now you're being inconsistent.

It's the strength of the SNP which is the biggest hindrance to the main opposition party to the Tories : namely Labour.

zagubov

kabayiri wrote: »

It's the strength of the SNP which is the biggest hindrance to the main opposition party to the Tories : namely Labour.

It's the other way round, unfortunately, as it's the underperformance of Labour that's responsible for the strength of the SNP. They started to become an alternative to the Tories rather than an opposition, and that left the SNP with an empty niche to move into. And in the north of England, UKIP ditto.