The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

TrickyTree83

mollycat wrote: »

The thing that the zealots cannot get their heads around, (either through small mindedness or a lack of being able to think in a sophisticated way is this.....

Yes, many people in Scotland are unhappy with a conservative government; THOSE VERY SAME PEOPLE dislike the prospect of economic ruin following Independence EVEN MORE because THEY UNDERSTAND THE ISSUES!

Pro indy zealots on here exist in such a confirmation bias bubble the have either forgotten or don't realise how savvy their fellow Scots are.

Engaging in ideological warfare rather than actually campaigning on positives they can find will backfire spectacularly.

Does Shakey honestly think "They're bad, they're evil, vote for us so you don't get them" will energise people to vote for economic hardship, job losses, tax rises, depopulation, welfare cuts, etc...?

Truly off their rockers now. I thought Whiskey Export Duty was the pinnacle of stupid for the independence movement, I thought they'd have a stab at telling the truth this time round, being honest with the electorate and seeing what they genuinely want.

The deceit continues...

Hintza

Shakethedisease wrote: »

An anti-Tory message is a racing certainty Tricky. I've already told you that.

And that is the best, most positive thing the SNP can come up with.

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Dear lord.

You're now quoting articles that have passages like this...



Can we take that as a tacit admission from you of the economic argument being firmly against independence?

The anti-Conservative project fear platform will fail. If Westminster agrees to your referendum in 2018, you'll have one last chance before this really is put to bed for at least the next 20 - 30 years, if not more.

It's such a mistake, you need to be selling the EU, selling an independent Scotland. You'll still have the Conservative party in Scotland should Scotland become independent.

You need to win arguments on:

- currency
- salaries
- employment
- welfare
- debt
- agriculture
- fishing
- manufacturing
- banking
- insurance
- trade
- taxation
- representation
- oil
- defence
- foreign office/policy
- citizenship
- pensions
- health
- education

I'm sure I've not exhausted the list.

Goodness me, arguing and debating all of the above has been part and parcel of everyday Scottish politics since 2011 lol. There are no definitive answers.

Kind of like Brexit where you're currently going round the boards arguing and debating nearly exactly the same things, only a full 6 months AFTER a referendum. You have no clue still what trade, banking etc is going to look like.

But you think people will vote for independence based on your hatred for the Conservatives.

:T

No, not purely. But it will certainly help matters along nicely. Especially given Scottish historical voting patterns. :T

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Engaging in ideological warfare rather than actually campaigning on positives they can find will backfire spectacularly.

Does Shakey honestly think "They're bad, they're evil, vote for us so you don't get them" will energise people to vote for economic hardship, job losses, tax rises, depopulation, welfare cuts, etc...?

Truly off their rockers now. I thought Whiskey Export Duty was the pinnacle of stupid for the independence movement, I thought they'd have a stab at telling the truth this time round, being honest with the electorate and seeing what they genuinely want.

The deceit continues...

The Yes campaign was very positive indeed last time around. If you ask me too positive, needed a few robust negatives in there too. Theresa May and Brexit will do the job in that department.

CLAPTON

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Goodness me, arguing and debating all of the above has been part and parcel of everyday Scottish politics since 2011 lol. There are no definitive answers.

Kind of like Brexit where you're currently going round the boards arguing and debating nearly exactly the same things, only a full 6 months AFTER a referendum. You have no clue still what trade, banking etc is going to look like.

No, not purely. But it will certainly help matters along nicely. Especially given Scottish historical voting patterns. :T

Maybe if Alex had been willing to trust the voters of scotland with the answers to these important and very reasonable questions, Iscotland would now be a reality.

We will never know now, but Nicola is on target to repeat the same mistake of patronising the people of scotland.
Trust them with the truth.

Shakethedisease

Hintza wrote: »

And that is the best, most positive thing the SNP can come up with.

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

The SNP are always going on about how wonderful Scotland is and could be. Say what you like about them but they've never been shy in that. Time to start pointing out some serious negatives ahead in the next few years. And forcefully too. 'Vote No for the Tories !' should be on billboards and on double page newspaper spreads everywhere.

Along with all the positive messaging that went on and built significant support last time. Should be a nice balance.

Oh and Molly, if I lived purely in a pro-indy bubble, I'd hardly be spending my time posting here would I ? Those that understand the economic issues, are those that also wish to remain in the Single Market on the whole. There will be serious 'issues' to concern themselves with leaving that too.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Goodness me, arguing and debating all of the above has been part and parcel of everyday Scottish politics since 2011 lol. There are no definitive answers.

Kind of like Brexit where you're currently going round the boards arguing and debating nearly exactly the same things, only a full 6 months AFTER a referendum. You have no clue still what trade, banking etc is going to look like.

No, not purely. But it will certainly help matters along nicely. Especially given Scottish historical voting patterns. :T

There clearly are definitive answers.

If we both accept that statistics can be inaccurate we should also accept that they are not going to be so grossly inaccurate that £15bn just goes missing. To put the number into perspective: £15,000,000,000.

They're also not going to be so grossly inaccurate that the majority of trade that Scotland does is with the rest of the UK, not the EU, would be proven false.

So where is the economic benefit to the every day Scot in going it alone?

There isn't one.

Then there's the political. Currently Scotland is over represented at Westminster. They have more politicians per person than England for certain.

Within the EU, Scotland's presence in the EU parliament will be smaller than that of Finland. And one of 28 nations when arguing for what legislation is good for Scotland, instead of one of 4 within the UK.

So where does the every day Scot have the most representation, since this referendum is to leave one union to join another?

The UK.

The unfortunate situation that they've been duped into voting SNP based on lies means they have no chance of being represented in government at Westminster is no excuse. Voting for a regional party will never deliver any other result.

The question is very cut and dry, Scotland should remain in the UK and Scots should reject and dismantle the divisive SNP, moving back to parties that stand for the whole of the UK. If that means a new centre-left party that stands across the whole UK, then that's what it should take. Independence is not the solution, it's just a different, larger problem for Scots.

You know the above to be the case, which is why you're hoping beyond hope that the level of support is maintained at it's 2014 level for you to build on via the platform of "Do you hate the Tories? If so, vote for independence!". But you know that the trajectory is downward for independence support. It will drop further by the time a referendum comes around in 2018 (if it's agreed to by Westminster). You also know that campaigning on an anti-Conservative platform will yield meagre results because the SNP are themselves hated in Scotland. Arguably more than the Conservatives, since the SNP sow binary division, covet grievance, and fail to govern adequately.

Thrugelmir

Shakethedisease wrote: »

The Yes campaign was very positive indeed last time around. If you ask me too positive, needed a few robust negatives in there too. Theresa May and Brexit will do the job in that department.

Why have the SNP got to rely on other factors outside of their control. Shows a complete lack of conviction behind their own endless stream of propaganda. Once gone. Time moves on.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

There clearly are definitive answers.

There are. But will only be known once independence is done and dusted.

If we both accept that statistics can be inaccurate we should also accept that they are not going to be so grossly inaccurate that £15bn just goes missing. To put the number into perspective: £15,000,000,000.

They're also not going to be so grossly inaccurate that the majority of trade that Scotland does is with the rest of the UK, not the EU, would be proven false.

So where is the economic benefit to the every day Scot in going it alone?

There isn't one.

Of course there is. The answer is obviously to take control of the Scottish economy from those who have run it as badly as you state and try something else. How else is the Scottish economy to recover ?

Then there's the political. Currently Scotland is over represented at Westminster. They have more politicians per person than England for certain.

Within the EU, Scotland's presence in the EU parliament will be smaller than that of Finland. And one of 28 nations when arguing for what legislation is good for Scotland, instead of one of 4 within the UK.

So where does the every day Scot have the most representation, since this referendum is to leave one union to join another?

Scotland won't be leaving the EU in order to re-join EU. That's such a stupid idea. I don't know why you keep presenting it. She'll either remain as she is in the EU after independence, or leave the EU and join another organisation which includes full Single Market membership. As seamlessly as possible.

The UK.

The unfortunate situation that they've been duped into voting SNP based on lies means they have no chance of being represented in government at Westminster is no excuse. Voting for a regional party will never deliver any other result.

The question is very cut and dry, Scotland should remain in the UK and Scots should reject and dismantle the divisive SNP, moving back to parties that stand for the whole of the UK. If that means a new centre-left party that stands across the whole UK, then that's what it should take. Independence is not the solution, it's just a different, larger problem for Scots.

There are an awful lot of should's there that aren't based on the remotest of current realities.

You know the above to be the case, which is why you're hoping beyond hope that the level of support is maintained at it's 2014 level for you to build on via the platform of "Do you hate the Tories? If so, vote for independence!".

I'm winding you up with my imaginary 'Vote No for the Tories' posters. But that doesn't make it any less of an effective message. I'm pointing out to you that it will be used though. Over and over again and you should get used to Sturgeon talking less about the EU, and more about what the Tories do or don't over the coming year or so. Is a message that will be hammered home.

But you know that the trajectory is downward for independence support. It will drop further by the time a referendum comes around in 2018 (if it's agreed to by Westminster). You also know that campaigning on an anti-Conservative platform will yield meagre results because the SNP are themselves hated in Scotland. Arguably more than the Conservatives, since the SNP sow binary division, covet grievance, and fail to govern adequately.

The SNP aren't hated in Scotland. Don't base any futile hopes on that being the case going forward because it's very obvious that they're the most successful and voted for party going in Scotland at the moment. Something which is unlikely to change unless Scottish Labour get their act together. Davidson is going to crash and burn with no policies whatsoever, apart from trying to stop a referendum she's patently terrified of.

Shakethedisease

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Why have the SNP got to rely on other factors outside of their control. Shows a complete lack of conviction behind their own endless stream of propaganda. Once gone. Time moves on.

I'll just leave these here shall I. The SNP have obviously been learning lessons from the Tories no ?





Those are actual convoys of billboard vans by the way.