The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

A_Medium_Size_Jock

mayonnaise wrote: »

Nicola has time on her side.
With the UK sliding into brexit recession, the case for union will become feebler by the day.

Any evidence of this "sliding into brexit recession"?

TrickyTree83

A_Medium_Size_Jock wrote: »

Any evidence of this "sliding into brexit recession"?

I was going to say, Lewis Carroll called, he wants his imagination back.

mayonnaise

A_Medium_Size_Jock wrote: »

Any evidence of this "sliding into brexit recession"?

Patience, Jock, patience...

mollycat

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

I hope you, the SNP and the independence brigade do adopt this strategy of campaigning against the Conservatives "with independence in mind".

It's a tactical nuclear error, I can't wait to see the end result to be able to say I told you so. Hopefully after such a damning result it'll be the death knell for all this stupidity. Because you still can't tell us why Scotland would be economically better off outside of the UK and inside the EU. So you harp on about the Conservatives, it's your go to line. I wonder if that ed:rotfl:ict came down from HQ?

People on here are actually hoping the country goes into recession so they can advance their selfish, pointless, divisive argument for independence. ...Pathetic!

No understanding at all of the fragility of an IScotland in ongoing world financial arena. Sitting tight with our r UK brothers and sisters through any future recession, (Brexit or otherwise), is of course the right thing to do, rather than attempt to exploit it.

TT....we are far closer to "HQ" on this thread than people appreciate! :rotfl:

TrickyTree83

mollycat wrote: »

People on here are actually hoping the country goes into recession so they can advance their selfish, pointless, divisive argument for independence. ...Pathetic!

No understanding at all of the fragility of an IScotland in ongoing world financial arena. Sitting tight with our r UK brothers and sisters through any future recession, (Brexit or otherwise), is of course the right thing to do, rather than attempt to exploit it.

TT....we are far closer to "HQ" on this thread than people appreciate! :rotfl:

Certainly appears to be.

There's no argument for an independent Scotland anymore, just a dogged determination that it should be so.

Say they'll be poorer - doesn't matter.
Say they'll have just as few powers in the EU as they do now - doesn't matter.
Say they'll lose the majority of their welfare system - doesn't matter.

Independence must be obtained. Either with no strings (see 2014) or with strings attached (Present). How independence looks doesn't matter, just that it is achieved.

It's religious in nature, and the devout are zealots in nature. Rational argumentation doesn't work. Thankfully they're now going so off the rails (campaigning for independence on a no-Conservative platform) they are even more likely than before to cause themselves to fail because it's not arguing for independence, it is - ironically :rotfl: - a project of perceived fear. So I guess the need for argumentation is no longer, for both sides.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

I hope you, the SNP and the independence brigade do adopt this strategy of campaigning against the Conservatives "with independence in mind".

It's a tactical nuclear error, I can't wait to see the end result to be able to say I told you so. Hopefully after such a damning result it'll be the death knell for all this stupidity. Because you still can't tell us why Scotland would be economically better off outside of the UK and inside the EU. So you harp on about the Conservatives, it's your go to line. I wonder if that edict came down from HQ?

An anti-Tory message is a racing certainty Tricky. I've already told you that. Scottish Labour is finished for now with even UK Labour giving up on it, so it's time to turn the turrets elsewhere. Alex Massie agrees..

In any case, Sturgeon has more than one round left in her magazine. As she told Andrew Marr:

‘If we’re going to be ignored […] We have to ask ourselves in Scotland, are we happy to have the direction of our country, the kind of country we want, to be determined by a right-wing Conservative government perhaps for the next 20 years, or do we want to take control of our own future?’

Even a simpleton can understand this: if a referendum does not take place in this parliament, it may well take place in the next. And if that referendum is won, Jeremy Corbyn will be remembered as independence’s handmaid. By destroying the Labour party as a potential party of government he would, by this analysis, leave Scotland little option but to go its own way. The alternative being, apparently, an endless Tory winter.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/nicola-sturgeon-making-goes-along/

The language/message/narrative is changing from being all about the EU to anti-Tory. It'll work very well too on those Labour voters still left in Scotland. They used to thrive on repeating it themselves. The 22% who vote for Davidson, not so much but it's a chunk of those half a million Labour voters Sturgeon is after in any second referendum.

Politically, Scotland would be much better out of the UK because interests and priorities have diverged too much. Economically it's a risk, ( as is leaving the EU ) but then no other country that's declared independence has ever wanted to go back.

Those people who argue that the numbers – cold, hard, economics – do not necessarily favour independence in those circumstances have a point but we should have learned by now that politics is more than numbers.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

An anti-Tory message is a racing certainty Tricky. I've already told you that. Scottish Labour is finished for now with even UK Labour giving up on it, so it's time to turn the turrets elsewhere. Alex Massie agrees..

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/nicola-sturgeon-making-goes-along/

The language/message/narrative is changing from being all about the EU to anti-Tory. It'll work very well too on those Labour voters still left in Scotland. They used to thrive on repeating it themselves. The 22% who vote for Davidson, not so much but it's a chunk of those half a million Labour voters Sturgeon is after in any second referendum.

Politically, Scotland would be much better out of the UK because interests and priorities have diverged too much. Economically it's a risk, ( as is leaving the EU ) but then no other country that's declared independence has ever wanted to go back.

I agree, it's a certainty of failure.

Hillary and the US media tried to scare the US electorate to victory.

Cameron and Remain tried to scare the UK electorate to victory.

Now Nicola and Independence are trying to scare the Scottish electorate to victory.

Are you really as learned in politics and history as you claim to be?

The independence movement is no longer telling people that independence will be good - because they've been smashed to pieces on those arguments time and time again - hence the accusations of "old and stale" arguments. They're old and stale because they stand up to scrutiny, the same cannot be said of the pro-indy arguments.

They will now engage in a campaign of project fear, because nothing else has worked. One bullet left in the magazine - sure, but no one told her it's a blank.

You know deep down that I'm right about this, you know that the Scottish electorate will reject a negative campaign for independence, particularly when there will be a negative campaign against independence too whose arguments are tried and tested. Less money, less jobs, less security, less opportunity, less welfare, less food, less credit, less fish, less pensions, less Scotland.

Like I said before, it's a Hail Mary move, ill-conceived and under prepared. There's no answers on currency, there's no answers on border effect, there's no answers on citizenship, there's no answers on pensions, there's no answers on taxation or employment. All of this is evident in the polls, which have since June trended downwards. I think you know the SNP are in for a kicking in the council elections, that's why you're dropping hints about it in your more recent posts. You know the trend is against independence now. This anti-Conservative project fear platform is the last roll of the dice. Then you're going to have to face up to the real arguments around independence and admit the pro-independence arguments are found wanting very badly and that now is not the time. The SNP should focus on governing now and improving the lot of the Scottish people instead of whinging about Westminster when the SNP themselves fail to deliver.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

I agree, it's a certainty of failure.

Hillary and the US media tried to scare the US electorate to victory.

Cameron and Remain tried to scare the UK electorate to victory.

Now Nicola and Independence are trying to scare the Scottish electorate to victory.

Are you really as learned in politics and history as you claim to be?

The independence movement is no longer telling people that independence will be good - because they've been smashed to pieces on those arguments time and time again - hence the accusations of "old and stale" arguments. They're old and stale because they stand up to scrutiny, the same cannot be said of the pro-indy arguments.

They will now engage in a campaign of project fear, because nothing else has worked. One bullet left in the magazine - sure, but no one told her it's a blank.

You know deep down that I'm right about this, you know that the Scottish electorate will reject a negative campaign for independence, particularly when there will be a negative campaign against independence too whose arguments are tried and tested. Less money, less jobs, less security, less opportunity, less welfare, less food, less credit, less fish, less pensions, less Scotland.

Like I said before, it's a Hail Mary move, ill-conceived and under prepared. There's no answers on currency, there's no answers on border effect, there's no answers on citizenship, there's no answers on pensions, there's no answers on taxation or employment. All of this is evident in the polls, which have since June trended downwards. I think you know the SNP are in for a kicking in the council elections, that's why you're dropping hints about it in your more recent posts. You know the trend is against independence now. This anti-Conservative project fear platform is the last roll of the dice. Then you're going to have to face up to the real arguments around independence and admit the pro-independence arguments are found wanting very badly and that now is not the time. The SNP should focus on governing now and improving the lot of the Scottish people instead of whinging about Westminster when the SNP themselves fail to deliver.

Anti-Tory isn't an old and stale argument. It's one that couldn't be used to any sort of effect in the last referendum. But it will be used to the fullest next time and will be used to persuade previous No Labour voters and current Labour remain voters. The hard work has already been done during the last ref to get to 45%. There's a tipping point in there somewhere and between Brexit and the prospect of a Conservative Govt for the next 10+ years it looks worryingly to unionists as if might be just enough. Winter is coming.. :cool:

It looks then like an independence referendum in 2018, because by early 2019 Brexit (or the conclusion of the Article 50 process) will have happened and the moment will be gone. The window for Sturgeon pre-Brexit is 2018.

What happens then? A fight – as one of the veterans of the 2014 Scottish referendum puts it – that will make the last campaign look like a model of politeness. Unionists had better start getting ready.

http://reaction.life/flip-flopping-sturgeon-will-hold-another-referendum/

Even seasoned anti-SNP writers can see that. I would suggest a simple message for the Yes side. Instead of 'Take Back Control' it should be something just as short, catchy and easy to remember ' Vote No for the Tories !' or something along those lines ? Will keep Labour No voters at home in absolute droves, and tip the rest of them yeswards.

As for trade/border effects can I just refer to to Conrad yesterday who said on another thread ?

Loving the idea of a quick clean break and leaving the squabble club far behind. People will still trade regardless.

Which all sounds really easy regarding trade. Scotland should take note. The rest of your post is just a litany of wishful thinking and trying to ascribe deep down 'feelings' about independence which are very clearly, should you read my posts, not there. :A

Council elections *shrugs* the only real story in that one is how Scottish Labour do, particularly in Glasgow. That's what we'll all be watching up for up here. STV isn't FPTP or a binary referendum.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Anti-Tory isn't an old and stale argument. It's one that couldn't be used to any sort of effect in the last referendum. But it will be used to the fullest next time and will be used to persuade previous No Labour voters and current Labour remain voters. The hard work has already been done during the last ref to get to 45%. There's a tipping point in there somewhere and between Brexit and the prospect of a Conservative Govt for the next 10+ years it looks worryingly to unionists as if might be just enough. Winter is coming.. :cool:

http://reaction.life/flip-flopping-sturgeon-will-hold-another-referendum/

Even seasoned anti-SNP writers can see that. I would suggest a simple message for the Yes side. Instead of 'Take Back Control' it should be something just as short, catchy and easy to remember ' Vote No for the Tories !' or something along those lines ? Will keep Labour No voters at home in absolute droves, and tip the rest of them yeswards.

As for trade/border effects can I just refer to to Conrad yesterday who said on another thread ? Which all sounds really easy regarding trade. Scotland should take note. The rest of your post is just a litany of wishful thinking and trying to ascribe deep down 'feelings' about independence which are very clearly, should you read my posts, not there. :A

Council elections *shrugs* the only real story in that one is how Scottish Labour do, particularly in Glasgow. That's what we'll all be watching up for up here. STV isn't FPTP or a binary referendum.

Dear lord.

You're now quoting articles that have passages like this...

That means she must, as Alex Massie put it in The Spectator, play for time and look for a moment of maximum opportunity when the electorate might ignore the negative economic arguments.

Can we take that as a tacit admission from you of the economic argument being firmly against independence?

The anti-Conservative project fear platform will fail. If Westminster agrees to your referendum in 2018, you'll have one last chance before this really is put to bed for at least the next 20 - 30 years, if not more.

It's such a mistake, you need to be selling the EU, selling an independent Scotland. You'll still have the Conservative party in Scotland should Scotland become independent.

You need to win arguments on:

- currency
- salaries
- employment
- welfare
- debt
- agriculture
- fishing
- manufacturing
- banking
- insurance
- trade
- taxation
- representation
- oil
- defence
- foreign office/policy
- citizenship
- pensions
- health
- education

I'm sure I've not exhausted the list.

But you think people will vote for independence based on your hatred for the Conservatives.

:T

mollycat

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Dear lord.

You're now quoting articles that have passages like this...



Can we take that as a tacit admission from you of the economic argument being firmly against independence?

The anti-Conservative project fear platform will fail. If Westminster agrees to your referendum in 2018, you'll have one last chance before this really is put to bed for at least the next 20 - 30 years, if not more.

It's such a mistake, you need to be selling the EU, selling an independent Scotland. You'll still have the Conservative party in Scotland should Scotland become independent.

You need to win arguments on:

- currency
- salaries
- employment
- welfare
- debt
- agriculture
- fishing
- manufacturing
- banking
- insurance
- trade
- taxation
- representation
- oil
- defence
- foreign office/policy
- citizenship
- pensions
- health
- education

I'm sure I've not exhausted the list.

But you think people will vote for independence based on your hatred for the Conservatives.

:T

The thing that the zealots cannot get their heads around, (either through small mindedness or a lack of being able to think in a sophisticated way is this.....

Yes, many people in Scotland are unhappy with a conservative government; THOSE VERY SAME PEOPLE dislike the prospect of economic ruin following Independence EVEN MORE because THEY UNDERSTAND THE ISSUES!

Pro indy zealots on here exist in such a confirmation bias bubble the have either forgotten or don't realise how savvy their fellow Scots are.