The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

elantan

So we put money into building a railway that stops 150 miles away from our border but we get more than we put in



RIGHT YE ARE THEN lol lol lol lol

Ah tell ye ye cannae make it up

TrickyTree83

elantan wrote: »

So we put money into building a railway that stops 150 miles away from our border but we get more than we put in



RIGHT YE ARE THEN lol lol lol lol

Ah tell ye ye cannae make it up

Check out the details around HS2 for yourself. Like I said, stop believing the lies you get fed by the indy support. Crowd funded ideologues like Stuart Campbell don't have a vested interest in the truth, just to paint a narrative to keep the punters happy and money in his pocket.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

I think the pro-indy supporters on here need to come to terms with being called out, challenged and roundly defeated on the debate. Accept that independence is not the answer and find a new pet project to obsess over so they don't have the potential to do anyone else any harm in future with misguided, misinformed beliefs.

Edit: Having a read of some stuff that is based on facts, evidence, and by someone who is more than willing to correct errors they make, who absolutely tears shreds out of the independence protagonists might be a good place to start.

Stop believing the lies.

http://chokkablog.blogspot.co.uk/2015/10/wings-and-his-wee-blue-book-of-errors.html

Edit 2: Loving the insights into the indy supporters mind in the comments of that blog post....

What a total muppet.

I agree about Hague, he is a bit of a muppet. And the link to that article is actually old and stale news to almost anyone who follows this debate closely.

You don't need to be 'calling anyone out'. This is a debate forum, not the UN and nothing you, I or anyone else here says or has opinions on is going to make much difference in the end. We're exchanging opinions not 'defeating' each other like in some sort of interactive video game. And this :-

It's finished. The movement is finished. You've been outed as the charlatans you are, false memes, lies, propaganda, backtracking, etc... total deceit.

.. is just total nonsense from someone who evidently hasn't set foot in Scotland for several years.

The 45% who voted Yes a full two years ago are still there, just 200,000 short of 50.1%. Scottish Labour is crashing and burning and May is showing all the hallmarks of being one of the most unpopular PM's in Scotland in recent times. Brexit won't help matters, neither will all those EU nationals in Scotland who would vote Yes tomorrow. Nor previous solid Labour No voters who are now reconsidering.

Is looking very grim for the UK as a continuing state. Not with the SNP dominant north of the border, and with an ever more right wing Tory Govt south of it. As long as that state of affairs continues then independence will continue to be a huge factor whatever happens with Brexit regardless. Much as you would wish it the SNP isn't going to just disappear, and while they are around then independence is always going to be a factor as they're not going to stop campaigning for that either. This is something you're going to have to accept sooner or later. That, and the fact that it's the Scots people themselves who have put the SNP where they are.

Sturgeon will likely use Brexit for the timing of the next ref unless there's a soft/single market type Brexit for the UK as a whole. Will also use it to push the economic advantages of staying in the Single Market. But politically, it'll likely be a very strong anti-Tory message that's going to be front and center not the EU or other alternatives. This will resonate very well as it always has in Scotland.

Then there's the trade figures of 64% with rUK and 11% with the EU.

These are simple statistics, produced by researchers and the Scottish government that put the choice into a stark contrast for people who don't follow politics or have an axe to grind.

Which do you think they would choose given these details? Independence or not?

Sturgeon has already said if the UK leaves the customs union, then Scotland will too and vice versa. There will be no issue with trade continuing within the rUK. Also, we've yet to see how stable or unstable things get economically for the UK once Brexit actually gets going. Persuading voters to stay in an unstable and uncertain UK is going to be a much tougher task than in 2014 where the UK was seen as stability max.

I personally think it's the UK that's over within the next 4 or 5 years. There's very little apart from a yearly accounting exercise to keep it together anymore, with even that hotly disputed. Look on the bright side though, that means England will be independent too AND out of the EU ! :T

CLAPTON

Shakethedisease wrote: »

I personally think it's the UK that's over within the next 4 or 5 years. There's very little apart from a yearly accounting exercise to keep it together anymore, with even that hotly disputed. Look on the bright side though, that means England will be independent too AND out of the EU ! :T

so does that mean the voters of scotland will be deemed to be mature enough to know what currency they will use for iscotland : or
will the ditherer still be dithering?

Enterprise_1701C

kabayiri wrote: »

What happens if you are pro EU but anti Scottish independence, or the other way around?

It strikes me that having another referendum which bundles in the EU issue (ie pre A50 completion) just complicates the value judgement everyone will have to make.

If someone from a mythical EU state asked my advice on when to call a referendum, I would tell them to hold fire....who knows how this post-Brexit-vote, post-Trump-election world is going to pan out?

I don't get this idea that if you leave the UK before Brexit then you can stay in the EU. Scotland is NOT a member of the EU, the UK is. It was made clear by the EU before the previous referendum that becoming independent would put Scotland outside the EU.

If Scotland becomes independent they would have to apply to join the EU, acceptance of that is by no means automatic or even guaranteed, many qualifying parameters would have to be met. And I would imagine they will fiddle with the goalposts again to make it difficult for Scotland to join, too many countries within the EU are having trouble with independence movements.

Why would you go to all this trouble anyway, the EU will cease to exist within a few years because they are refusing to reform and too many countries are unhappy with the institutional corruption within the EU and the absolute refusal to admit that they could be wrong about anything. They are like a toddler refusing to admit it would be dangerous to jump off a cliff and they are going to do it to prove they were right all along. Of course, us adults know what happens when you jump off a cliff.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

I agree about Hague, he is a bit of a muppet. And the link to that article is actually old and stale news to almost anyone who follows this debate closely.

Old and stale isn't an argument is it?

Rhetorical question, everyone knows that. Facts are facts, they don't care about your feelings. If they're old, then they're old facts. Doesn't make them any less correct or the lies your friends at WoS (Stuart Campbell) peddle any more correct.

You don't need to be 'calling anyone out'. This is a debate forum, not the UN and nothing you, I or anyone else here says or has opinions on is going to make much difference in the end. We're exchanging opinions not 'defeating' each other like in some sort of interactive video game. And this :-

.. is just total nonsense from someone who evidently hasn't set foot in Scotland for several years.

Nope, we absolutely do need to call you and others out on your mendacious BS.

It's high time lies were called lies and you were all ridiculed for parroting them.

The 45% who voted Yes a full two years ago are still there, just 200,000 short of 50.1%. Scottish Labour is crashing and burning and May is showing all the hallmarks of being one of the most unpopular PM's in Scotland in recent times. Brexit won't help matters, neither will all those EU nationals in Scotland who would vote Yes tomorrow. Nor previous solid Labour No voters who are now reconsidering.

You say things like this, whilst also acknowledging the polls show support having moved downwards since the EU referendum. You gloss over this by trying to reference that support hasn't moved since 2014. It's on the downward trajectory because lies and deceit don't win people round - ask Hillary how it worked for her recently.

Is looking very grim for the UK as a continuing state. Not with the SNP dominant north of the border, and with an ever more right wing Tory Govt south of it. As long as that state of affairs continues then independence will continue to be a huge factor whatever happens with Brexit regardless. Much as you would wish it the SNP isn't going to just disappear, and while they are around then independence is always going to be a factor as they're not going to stop campaigning for that either. This is something you're going to have to accept sooner or later. That, and the fact that it's the Scots people themselves who have put the SNP where they are.

The SNP are really just a bunch of annoying zealots. They are on the wane, their support in the last Scottish elections was less than previous support, they lost in 2014, the Conservatives are gaining ground, they're making a mess of government, they are a sitting government, they are making a mess of this EU referendum situation. They're incompetent.

They may as well disappear as I'm confident in the short - medium term future they will be frozen out of power at Holyrood, either by voters rallying around one party to keep them out or by parties collaborating to do so.

Sturgeon will likely use Brexit for the timing of the next ref unless there's a soft/single market type Brexit for the UK as a whole. Will also use it to push the economic advantages of staying in the Single Market. But politically, it'll likely be a very strong anti-Tory message that's going to be front and center not the EU or other alternatives. This will resonate very well as it always has in Scotland.

I hope so, because that's going to hasten the collapse of the deceit. This version of dishonest politics will get you nowhere post 2016, people are sick and tired of lies, and you just don't seem to get that, so you celebrate the SNP telling more. Architects of your own doom.

Sturgeon has already said if the UK leaves the customs union, then Scotland will too and vice versa. There will be no issue with trade continuing within the rUK. Also, we've yet to see how stable or unstable things get economically for the UK once Brexit actually gets going. Persuading voters to stay in an unstable and uncertain UK is going to be a much tougher task than in 2014 where the UK was seen as stability max.

Uh-huh, and since when did Nicola become the sole arbiter of Scotland's future relations with... everyone? She cannot guarantee anything like that, lies, again.

In 2014 the SNP were willing to leave the EU and then re-join. Perhaps now they're unwilling to do that because it serves their mendacious purposes politically, despite the reality being pretty much the same as it was in 2014 of having to leave and then re-join. More lies isn't it? They're just everywhere...

I personally think it's the UK that's over within the next 4 or 5 years. There's very little apart from a yearly accounting exercise to keep it together anymore, with even that hotly disputed. Look on the bright side though, that means England will be independent too AND out of the EU ! :T

There's a lot of things that you think personally, that appear to run counter to evidence, even that which is accepted by the SNP you don't recognise. I should imagine there wouldn't be too many who put stock in your predictions, I certainly think you're completely wrong about pretty much everything related to independence.

For example, you harp on about Scottish Labour like it matters in a binary Yes/No question, it's a personal question and there will be Labour support that thinks either way. The independence movement should have arguments that are not based on lies and deceit and you'd probably win. Right now you're just surviving on the grace of idiots. There's not been one of you who has come across with any intelligent rebuttal of the economics, some of you have no idea HS2 will be a financial benefit to Scotland. Some of you I can only assume don't even understand the language you use to post and just leave "Ha ha ha ha" and colloquialisms in response.

When you're out of arguments and you just rely on the same lies you told before then of course you're going to try to re-frame the argument, such as your assertion that the focus is shifting to smear the Conservatives. Like I said before, 2016 showed you that the mud slinging, the truth denying are character traits of the losers. When you've been called out and been banged to rights the most dignifying thing you could do would be to admit you were wrong and change your opinions accordingly, yet I had to fight hard to get you to admit to the smallest of infractions because you are so entrenched in your own deceit. You are far from objective, far from evidence based reasoning. As I said in a previous post it comes across as religious zealotry when Nicola, the SNP, WoS, Stuart Campbell and anyone who agrees with you can do no wrong purely because - they agree with you.

Hintza

Shakethedisease wrote: »

This will resonate very well as it always has in Scotland.

'Nicola Sturgeon works as a clerk in the Records Department of the Ministry of Truth and Information where her job is to rewrite the news and historical documents so that they match the current party line. This mainly involves adjusting history books and newspaper articles, and editing photographs, mostly to remove 'non persons', people who have fallen foul of the party'.

Poor Gordon Wilson!!

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Old and stale isn't an argument is it?

Rhetorical question, everyone knows that. Facts are facts, they don't care about your feelings. If they're old, then they're old facts. Doesn't make them any less correct or the lies your friends at WoS (Stuart Campbell) peddle any more correct.

But on the last page your were going on like the toothache about a poll that was from the last indy ref being too old to present. Despite the fact that I mentioned it was the only time the question has ever been asked in any poll. Make up your mind.

Nope, we absolutely do need to call you and others out on your mendacious BS.

It's high time lies were called lies and you were all ridiculed for parroting them.

Call them out then, because up until now you seem to have a bit of trouble doing so given your lack of knowledge and insight into Scottish based politics. You depend almost exclusively on Telegraph and other media presentations for your facts. Only fools ever believe 100% 'what the papers say'.

You say things like this, whilst also acknowledging the polls show support having moved downwards since the EU referendum. You gloss over this by trying to reference that support hasn't moved since 2014. It's on the downward trajectory because lies and deceit don't win people round - ask Hillary how it worked for her recently.

Support for independence hasn't moved since 2014. What polls are you reading and getting your info from ? If you're going to make assertations about falling support at least show your working. You haven't in this case.

I haven't acknowledged falling support for independence nor the SNP. Simply because there's no evidence of it happening. Support for independence DID shoot up just after the Brexit vote. But seems to have been a shock reaction to the result, the immediate prospect of Article 50 and Boris Johnson as the next PM. Neither happened.

The SNP are really just a bunch of annoying zealots. They are on the wane, their support in the last Scottish elections was less than previous support, they lost in 2014, the Conservatives are gaining ground, they're making a mess of government, they are a sitting government, they are making a mess of this EU referendum situation. They're incompetent.

They got the highest number of votes in devolution parliament history since 1999. Improving even on 2011 vote numbers. If you want to call that support on the wane or a loss of support then do so. But it just makes you look a little silly. The PR system in Scotland isn't designed for endless majorities.

They may as well disappear as I'm confident in the short - medium term future they will be frozen out of power at Holyrood, either by voters rallying around one party to keep them out or by parties collaborating to do so.

Scotland will be independent before that ever happens. Once Scottish Labour goes, so does the Union. Younger voters are all voting SNP/Green leaving Labour and Conservative support almost exclusively to the over 55+ age group on a sliding scale from 16 upwards. Even were a coalition to happen, it won't be enough.

I hope so, because that's going to hasten the collapse of the deceit. This version of dishonest politics will get you nowhere post 2016, people are sick and tired of lies, and you just don't seem to get that, so you celebrate the SNP telling more. Architects of your own doom.

Uh-huh, and since when did Nicola become the sole arbiter of Scotland's future relations with... everyone? She cannot guarantee anything like that, lies, again.

She's doing what Scottish voters as a majority want her to do. She's not the sole arbiter.. that's us Scots. We let her and her party know what to do via the ballot box, then expect her 100% to do our bidding. Do you have a problem with that perhaps ?

In 2014 the SNP were willing to leave the EU and then re-join. Perhaps now they're unwilling to do that because it serves their mendacious purposes politically, despite the reality being pretty much the same as it was in 2014 of having to leave and then re-join. More lies isn't it? They're just everywhere...

No. They weren't willing to leave the EU in 2014 and rejoin. Neither were 55% of Scots voters who voted No. What a slap in the face for them now. The rest of us 45% thought leaving the EU/then rejoining an unlikely prospect based on the arguments presented. Namely that there would be little point in spending years untangling Scotland from the EU, only to go through the whole process again in reverse.<---- THIS. It's an extremely stupid and illogical thing to do. Anyone with half a brain cell can see that.

Is a good soundbite and headline grabber though, I'll grant you that. But in reality ? Years to get out, then years to get back in spending millions in admin and legislation in the process both in Scotland and the EU for a completely pointless exercise. Nah.

There's a lot of things that you think personally, that appear to run counter to evidence, even that which is accepted by the SNP you don't recognise. I should imagine there wouldn't be too many who put stock in your predictions, I certainly think you're completely wrong about pretty much everything related to independence.

I think the same about you. Sturgeon has done exactly what I said she would do. You've spent months since June in denial. Soft Brexit - fine. Hard Brexit - separate Scottish deal or indy ref 2. It's not difficult to see where this is heading at all. I say 'personally' so that I'm not accused of making facts up.Which is what happens when I don't say the word personally. It differentiates my own views from any established facts presented.

For example, you harp on about Scottish Labour like it matters in a binary Yes/No question, it's a personal question and there will be Labour support than thinks either way. The independence movement should have arguments that are not based on lies and deceit and you'd probably win. Right now you're just surviving on the grace of idiots. There's not been one of you who has come across with any intelligent rebuttal of the economics, some of you have no idea HS2 will be a financial benefit to Scotland. Some of you I can only assume don't even understand the language you use to post and just leave "Ha ha ha ha" and colloquialisms in response.

Not Scottish Labour as a party.. their voters. Who absolutely do and will count in a binary vote. There's still half a million of them ( May 2016 ). Last time round Labour fought the independence campaign on party political grounds with the understanding that Labour would most likely be in power in 2015. That ain't happening in any second ref. Some of them will still vote No. Some of them will vote Yes next time round ( some because they want to stay in the EU/Single Market, some because they can't face the thought that a No vote is an endorsement of a Westminster Conservative Govt for the foreseeable future )... and a significant proportion won't vote at all.

This will lower any No vote numbers and make a large impact in a binary referendum. So just to be clear it's Scottish Labour voters I'm talking about. Half a million of them. Independence was 200,000 short of 50.1 % last time round.

When you're out of arguments and you just rely on the same lies you told before then of course you're going to try to re-frame the argument, such as your assertion that the focus is shifting to smear the Conservatives. Like I said before, 2016 showed you that the mud slinging, the truth denying are character traits of the losers. When you've been called out and been banged to rights the most dignifying thing you could do would be to admit you were wrong and change your opinions accordingly, yet I had to fight hard to get you to admit to the smallest of infractions because you are so entrenched in your own deceit. You are far from objective, far from evidence based reasoning. As I said in a previous post it comes across as religious zealotry when Nicola, the SNP, WoS, Stuart Campbell and anyone who agrees with you can do no wrong purely because - they agree with you.

Well, a bit of a rant to finish there. But never mind. We're in the end days of the UK. Brexit, this Tory Govt and a collapsing Labour has probably just about put the tin lid on it. Hard Brexit - no Scottish Deal - Indy Ref 2. And an Indy Ref 2 if it happens which is going to be a completely different one from the last. Scottish Labour voters and EU nationals will swing it either way. The rest are already solid Yes's and No's.

ps I see oil prices are on the up.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Support for independence hasn't moved since 2014. What polls are you reading and getting your info from ? If you're going to make assertations about falling support at least show your working. You haven't in this case.

I haven't acknowledged falling support for independence nor the SNP. Simply because there's no evidence of it happening. Support for independence DID shoot up just after the Brexit vote. But seems to have been a shock reaction to the result, the immediate prospect of Article 50 and Boris Johnson as the next PM. Neither happened.

Look at this... you just waffle and in this contradict yourself in two consecutive paragraphs.

What's true? Your version of events or mine?

I've not guessed at why it happened, I simply stated that it did. Support went up, and then went down. 2011 was a majority government, 2015 was a minority.

It's not that difficult.

CLAPTON

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Well, a bit of a rant to finish there. But never mind. We're in the end days of the UK. Brexit, this Tory Govt and a collapsing Labour has probably just about put the tin lid on it. Hard Brexit - no Scottish Deal - Indy Ref 2. And an Indy Ref 2 if it happens which is going to be a completely different one from the last. Scottish Labour voters and EU nationals will swing it either way. The rest are already solid Yes's and No's.

ps I see oil prices are on the up.

what do the polls show in favour of iscotland?