The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

kabayiri

CLAPTON wrote: »

what do the polls show in favour of iscotland?

Yes. I'd be interested to know this as well.

For completeness, shouldn't we also know about polls on Welsh independence; NI; and even rUK retaining Scotland ?

mollycat

Shakethedisease wrote: »

But on the last page your were going on like the toothache about a poll that was from the last indy ref being too old to present. Despite the fact that I mentioned it was the only time the question has ever been asked in any poll. Make up your mind.

Call them out then, because up until now you seem to have a bit of trouble doing so given your lack of knowledge and insight into Scottish based politics. You depend almost exclusively on Telegraph and other media presentations for your facts. Only fools ever believe 100% 'what the papers say'.

Support for independence hasn't moved since 2014. What polls are you reading and getting your info from ? If you're going to make assertations about falling support at least show your working. You haven't in this case.

I haven't acknowledged falling support for independence nor the SNP. Simply because there's no evidence of it happening. Support for independence DID shoot up just after the Brexit vote. But seems to have been a shock reaction to the result, the immediate prospect of Article 50 and Boris Johnson as the next PM. Neither happened.

They got the highest number of votes in devolution parliament history since 1999. Improving even on 2011 vote numbers. If you want to call that support on the wane or a loss of support then do so. But it just makes you look a little silly. The PR system in Scotland isn't designed for endless majorities.

Scotland will be independent before that ever happens. Once Scottish Labour goes, so does the Union. Younger voters are all voting SNP/Green leaving Labour and Conservative support almost exclusively to the over 55+ age group on a sliding scale from 16 upwards. Even were a coalition to happen, it won't be enough.

She's doing what Scottish voters as a majority want her to do. She's not the sole arbiter.. that's us Scots. We let her and her party know what to do via the ballot box, then expect her 100% to do our bidding. Do you have a problem with that perhaps ?

No. They weren't willing to leave the EU in 2014 and rejoin. Neither were 55% of Scots voters who voted No. What a slap in the face for them now. The rest of us 45% thought leaving the EU/then rejoining an unlikely prospect based on the arguments presented. Namely that there would be little point in spending years untangling Scotland from the EU, only to go through the whole process again in reverse.<---- THIS. It's an extremely stupid and illogical thing to do. Anyone with half a brain cell can see that.

Is a good soundbite and headline grabber though, I'll grant you that. But in reality ? Years to get out, then years to get back in spending millions in admin and legislation in the process both in Scotland and the EU for a completely pointless exercise. Nah.

I think the same about you. Sturgeon has done exactly what I said she would do. You've spent months since June in denial. Soft Brexit - fine. Hard Brexit - separate Scottish deal or indy ref 2. It's not difficult to see where this is heading at all. I say 'personally' so that I'm not accused of making facts up.Which is what happens when I don't say the word personally. It differentiates my own views from any established facts presented.

Not Scottish Labour as a party.. their voters. Who absolutely do and will count in a binary vote. There's still half a million of them ( May 2016 ). Last time round Labour fought the independence campaign on party political grounds with the understanding that Labour would most likely be in power in 2015. That ain't happening in any second ref. Some of them will still vote No. Some of them will vote Yes next time round ( some because they want to stay in the EU/Single Market, some because they can't face the thought that a No vote is an endorsement of a Westminster Conservative Govt for the foreseeable future )... and a significant proportion won't vote at all.

This will lower any No vote numbers and make a large impact in a binary referendum. So just to be clear it's Scottish Labour voters I'm talking about. Half a million of them. Independence was 200,000 short of 50.1 % last time round.

Well, a bit of a rant to finish there. But never mind. We're in the end days of the UK. Brexit, this Tory Govt and a collapsing Labour has probably just about put the tin lid on it. Hard Brexit - no Scottish Deal - Indy Ref 2. And an Indy Ref 2 if it happens which is going to be a completely different one from the last. Scottish Labour voters and EU nationals will swing it either way. The rest are already solid Yes's and No's.

ps I see oil prices are on the up.

Biggest load of nonsense I've read yet on this thread and that's saying something.

Screeching, ranty, inaccurate nonsense at that; this poster is now contradicting themselves on a daily basis :rotfl:

Keep it up, this fanatical hysteria is the best advert for rejecting SNP nationalism going.

Hintza

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Younger voters are all voting SNP/Green

And this is how they will attempt to achieve those aims:-

'It is the absolute right of the State to supervise the formation of public opinion through the education system.'

'This is the secret of propaganda: Those in the schools who are to be persuaded by it should be completely immersed in the ideas of the propaganda, without ever noticing that they are being immersed in it.'

'The most brilliant propaganda will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly - it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over.'

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Look at this... you just waffle and in this contradict yourself in two consecutive paragraphs.

What's true? Your version of events or mine?

Mine. Independence support in 2014 45%. Independence support from the last poll taken, in fact the BMG poll mentioned here ( fieldwork 9-13th Dec )..45.5%. The trend is a straight line from 2014 to Dec 2016. QED Independence support remains stable/hasn't moved/isn't dropping.

I've not guessed at why it happened, I simply stated that it did. Support went up, and then went down. 2011 was a majority government, 2015 was a minority.

It's not that difficult.

Holyrood

2007 SNP 664,227 Minority

2011 SNP 902,915 Majority

2016 SNP 1,059,897 Minority

The SNP did too well in the FPTP section of the vote to pick up ( make up the PR numbers ) list seats. Whereas in 2011 they did just well enough in FPTP, but were also able to pick up lots of list seats as well. That PR balancing act worked against them in May last year. Their best performance ever in FPTP vote numbers, lost them list seats.

I think perhaps the concept of PR/D'Hondt voting systems seem to have passed you by ? QED, SNP support is stable also, and not on the wane as yet.

Shakethedisease

Hintza wrote: »

And this is how they will attempt to achieve those aims:-

'It is the absolute right of the State to supervise the formation of public opinion through the education system.'

'This is the secret of propaganda: Those in the schools who are to be persuaded by it should be completely immersed in the ideas of the propaganda, without ever noticing that they are being immersed in it.'

'The most brilliant propaganda will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly - it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over.'

Nonsense. Scotland always has voted for left of center parties. It was only when Labour took a gradual turn rightwards that the SNP started gaining ground. Essentially offering much the same as Labour previously had. The voters are voting for the same things, just a different party offering them with an added independence policy. Young people are also generally more left leaning and open to more radical changes. This generation have had Scottish independence normalised in the last few years.

mollycat

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Nonsense. Scotland always has voted for left of center parties. It was only when Labour took a gradual turn rightwards that the SNP started gaining ground. Essentially offering much the same as Labour previously had. The voters are voting for the same things, just a different party offering them with an added independence policy. Young people are also generally more left leaning and open to more radical changes. This generation have had Scottish independence normalised in the last few years.

Again, spin and misinformation passed off as fact.

Or; let's be kind and call it ignorance, (in the true sense of the word)

Even within my lifetime General Elections have had Scotland covered in swathes of blue; a simple Google search would show this to the uneducated.

It is in recent decades that the blue has all but disappeared, but this is a short time span indeed when discussed in the context of independence which of course would be irreversible.

This "debate" about Independence being a necessarry and desirable way to get rid of an "unpopular right wing government", is of course as spurious as it is short sighted.....if Labour were currently in power in Westminster, the nationalists would simply be peddling a different narrative with a dfifferent scapegoat!

Hintza

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Young people are also generally more left leaning and open to more radical changes. This generation have had Scottish independence normalised in the last few years.

The SNP policy in schools suggest they are following this policy:-

He alone, who owns the youth, gains the future.

CLAPTON

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Nonsense. Scotland always has voted for left of center parties. It was only when Labour took a gradual turn rightwards that the SNP started gaining ground. Essentially offering much the same as Labour previously had. The voters are voting for the same things, just a different party offering them with an added independence policy. Young people are also generally more left leaning and open to more radical changes. This generation have had Scottish independence normalised in the last few years.

Indeed so, but Scotland has never had to pay its own bills by taxing its own voters: its always relied on the hated English to give it free money.
Still a bit confuse why the lady ditherer still doesn't choose to tell the decent people of scotland what currency Iscotland will use.
Acolytes won't mind, the the voters will.

Tromking

mollycat wrote: »

Again, spin and misinformation passed off as fact.

Or; let's be kind and call it ignorance, (in the true sense of the word)

Even within my lifetime General Elections have had Scotland covered in swathes of blue; a simple Google search would show this to the uneducated.

It is in recent decades that the blue has all but disappeared, but this is a short time span indeed when discussed in the context of independence which of course would be irreversible.

This "debate" about Independence being a necessarry and desirable way to get rid of an "unpopular right wing government", is of course as spurious as it is short sighted.....if Labour were currently in power in Westminster, the nationalists would simply be peddling a different narrative with a dfifferent scapegoat!

The chameleon type properties of the SNP is indeed noted. From Tartan Tories to Leftist Progressives designed reel in disenfranchised Labour voters in the central belt, all in a few short years!
On Scotland`s new journey toward Ulster style binary choice politics, I`m expecting a return to "swathes of blue" on the Scottish politcal map.

Enterprise_1701C

Sounds like sturgeon is getting desperate.

Speaking on the BBC’s Good Morning Scotland the First Minister said if the UK strikes a deal which allowed for continued access to the single market, and handed Scotland new powers over immigration, the SNP could put its push for independence “to one side”.

So she imagines that we will do what a small region of the country demands to stop them demanding independence again.

She will never stop demanding independence, and she has put this forward because she knows that we will not remain in the single market under the current circumstances.

We will retain access to the single market, so maybe she worded that wrongly. Everyone has access to it, they simply have to pay the rate that the protectionists demand.

Even if we bowed down to all her demands she would still demand an independance referendum.

She also seems to have forgotten that she needs to get permission from the UK or a referendum.