The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

I've refrained from posting because I'm tired of the lies.

Look Tricky, I don't lie in my posts. I post my opinions and comments the same as you do and am more than willing to debate with anyone who in interested who is also interested in reasoned discourse. I try and keep heated emotions out of it because at the end of the day this is just a forum luv, and no one here is going to change the course of world, EU or UK events.

In a debate people present opposing points of view and their reasons for them. The most interesting debates do not take place in echo chambers. That I don't agree with you ( and sincerely I do not in most matters on this thread ) does not equate to lying. It equates to good debate and interesting discussion.

So maybe it's well past time to get over yourself and stop the name calling and finger wagging eh ? It's boring, self serving and childish.

But saying AMSJ doesn't read posts properly is a bit rich.

He didn't read my post properly. I specified when the holding pen option came to light at the Holyrood European and External Relations Committee the timing of which was just after the Brexit vote on 23 June. He said I was claiming it was new info. I did no such thing. I also never alluded to, nor never would try and present Angus Robertson as any sort of impartial neutral lol ! He's the deputy leader of the SNP. AMSJ was also wrong on that.

So I said so.

All of this EU posturing is pointless if you can't win the argument for independence in the first place. Which it's blindingly obvious that you can't. On jobs, on trade, on taxation, on debt, the pro indy arguments this time around are worse than 2014. Salmond may have told porkies about oil but at least it was a kind of solution if it was true.

I disagree with you on all of this portion. In my own opinion if there's a hard Brexit, soon afterwards Sturgeon will present the legislation to Holyrood for a second referendum which will pass as the Greens have already given unconditional support.
She'll ask May for a Section 30 which will be refused.. but this in itself will only serve to boost independence support up by several % points. A second referendum will be held anyway. If it's lost, so be it. If not, then whatever Westminster says... Scotland's parliament will announce ( to the world/EU/anyone interested ) negotiation plans will be going ahead forthwith to leave the UK given the result.. and will be seeking to either remain in the EU, or to join EFTA depending on the best set of circumstances for Scotland at the time. Which of course will depend on how crap or not the deal is rUK gets from the EU.

This at the present time, and given the present circumstances which may or may not change, to me and in my opinion, is the likeliest rough course of events.

From what I'm reading there will be quite a few from rUK hoping and actively campaigning also to get rid of Scotland from the UK asap.

The_Last_Username

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

I watch a lot of philosophy vlogs, and recently there was one talking about why is irrationality ingrained in some people and not others. The proposed answer was to do with a need to not go against an established set of rules or dogma for fear of being ostracised and ending your chance to reproduce, a gene set survival mechanism. That these genes predisposed certain people to disregard evidence, logic and reasonable assumption in favour of being part of a crowd or group. These genes never leave us and so we end up with a schism in society. One that creates a lack of critical thinkers and an abundance of, well, sheep that have no idea they are sheep, they can't help it and you can't help them to realise it.

It's interesting stuff, hope it's not true though.

I wonder if they need a subject to study?
We may have found an ideal candidate for them here on this very thread.

Shakethedisease

The_Last_Username wrote: »

Evidence please?
Proof?
Because you seem to have missed the word "supposed".

Moto2 has also asked, just a few posts earlier.

Medium Jock posted it for you. Another one who doesn't read posts through properly.

Holyrood's European and External Relations Committee heard from a range of experts on Scotland's position following the UK vote to leave the EU on June 23. Experts agreed it is extremely difficult to envisage a situation where Scotland remains both in the EU and the UK, suggesting independence is the most likely route for Scotland to remain in the EU.
Dr Hughes, now an associate fellow of the Friends of Europe think tank, told MSPs: "I talk to people in Brussels, off the record, who were talking about Scotland being in some sort of transitional holding pen

"It wouldn't have a seat in the Council of Ministers until ratification of the treaties, but it wouldn't have to go through an absurd out and then in process.
"I go through all that for now because I think there is a timing issue.
"If Scotland waits until nearly the end of the two years to say, 'This isn't okay and now we're having an independence referendum', you might not have had that and had time to have the negotiations with the rest of the UK on dissolving the union before the whole of the UK has left.
"So, it's obviously a very big political judgement about whether and when to call an independence referendum.

Writing on Twitter, Dr Hughes later clarified that the discussions on Scotland's EU transition had taken place in 2014 but are likely to come up again following Brexit.
She said: "To clarify, I meant in 2014, but with more positive Brussels attitude to Scotland now (it is) likely to come up again."

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14591378.EU__transitional_holding_pen__talks_for_Scotland_have_been_held__MSPs_told/


Seems they were indeed talking about Scotland and possible routes into the EU in 2014. Thank you goes to Medium Jock for highlighting this for us all. Angus Roberston certainly seems to think it's a realistic option in the coming few years too.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Look Tricky, I don't lie in my posts. I post my opinions and comments the same as you do and am more than willing to debate with anyone who in interested who is also interested in reasoned discourse. I try and keep heated emotions out of it because at the end of the day this is just a forum luv, and no one here is going to change the course of world, EU or UK events.

In a debate people present opposing points of view and their reasons for them. The most interesting debates do not take place in echo chambers. That I don't agree with you ( and sincerely I do not in most matters on this thread ) does not equate to lying. It equates to good debate and interesting discussion.

So maybe it's well past time to get over yourself and stop the name calling and finger wagging eh ? It's boring, self serving and childish.

He didn't read my post properly. I specified when the holding pen option came to light at the Holyrood European and External Relations Committee the timing of which was just after the Brexit vote on 23 June. He said I was claiming it was new info. I did no such thing. I also never alluded to, nor never would try and present Angus Robertson as any sort of impartial neutral lol ! He's the deputy leader of the SNP. AMSJ was also wrong on that.

So I said so.

I disagree with you on all of this portion. In my own opinion if there's a hard Brexit, soon afterwards Sturgeon will present the legislation to Holyrood for a second referendum which will pass as the Greens have already given unconditional support.
She'll ask May for a Section 30 which will be refused.. but this in itself will only serve to boost independence support up by several % points. A second referendum will be held anyway. If it's lost, so be it. If not, then whatever Westminster says... Scotland's parliament will announce ( to the world/EU/anyone interested ) negotiation plans will be going ahead forthwith to leave the UK given the result.. and will be seeking to either remain in the EU, or to join EFTA depending on the best set of circumstances for Scotland at the time. Which of course will depend on how crap or not the deal is rUK gets from the EU.

This at the present time, and given the present circumstances which may or may not change, to me and in my opinion, is the likeliest rough course of events.

From what I'm reading there will be quite a few from rUK hoping and actively campaigning also to get rid of Scotland from the UK asap.

Great story, glad you agree that independence comes first before anything EU related can happen for Scotland. I'd advise the indy support focus on winning the battle they believe is in front of them rather than assuming it's already won.

I can't debate you. Not anymore. I'll post occasionally but we've moved into a stage where nothing factual gets recognised as such. Take jobs for example, clearly the SNP are lying about brexit being the biggest threat to Scottish jobs, and you also deny the Scottish economy depends more on the UK than that of the EU. When you deny the obvious how can anyone take anything you say seriously? I end up going round in circles trying to get you to admit / see the point and it never happens.

The same with trade. The same with 'nasty Westminster', the same with Barnett consequentials, the same with taxation, the border effect, the common weal paper, with anglophobia links to the SNP, again and again and again. Part of the philosophy vlog was that you can't change everyone's mind, that they can be predisposed to wanting to think / believe irrationally, so stop trying, it's a waste of time. Probably some wise words.

TTFN.

Moto2

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Look Tricky, I don't lie in my posts. I post my opinions and comments the same as you do and am more than willing to debate with anyone who in interested who is also interested in reasoned discourse.

If only you didn't confuse facts with opinions and totally ignore or evade answering awkward questions about them, you may get more useful debate.

The_Last_Username

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Medium Jock posted it for you. Another one who doesn't read posts through properly.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14591378.EU__transitional_holding_pen__talks_for_Scotland_have_been_held__MSPs_told/


Seems they were indeed talking about Scotland and possible routes into the EU in 2014. Thank you goes to Medium Jock for highlighting this for us all.

You really are proving the point other posters make regarding you ignoring fact and making up your own.
Unlike you it would appear, I can read.

Dr Kirsty Hughes told MSPs discussions have been taking place

Then:

Dr Hughes, now an associate fellow of the Friends of Europe think tank, told MSPs: "I talk to people in Brussels, off the record,

So no proof then; no evidence or supporting statements from elsewhere?
That is not proof.
It is the unsubstantiated word of one person.


BTW, I don't think that another poster having had enough of your ignorance and evasion will stop others from taking their place.
Being a public forum there will ALWAYS be posters who see through your tactics and take you to task.

Shakethedisease

The_Last_Username wrote: »

You know, the more posts I read by Shakethedisease (an aptly descriptive username IMHO) the more those posts read like the equivalent of infantile dummy-spitting.

Whenever posts are debated and pointed out as being misleading or even downright incorrect, which happens frequently BTW, the responses become increasingly diverting and ignore reasoned debate or (more often) fact.

Someone in this thread said (& cba to look but it's here somewhere) that these tactics help to dispell not only pro-SNP comments in this thread but further are helping to inform Scots of just how devious SNP and their supporters really are.
A spot-on comment, in my opinion.

Now cue said poster again spluttering and distracting without substance; "waffle and bluster" as yet another poster described Shake's posting style.

No comment on the actual content then ? Just broad brush putting people in little boxes and name calling ( devious ).
Look if you or Tricky etc can't debate properly or don't have any answers to give on the actual issues at hand that's hardly my fault.
Coming over all like some sort of moral guardians of what makes a good post or poster on a forum just makes you look a little bit silly and bereft of any ideas to be honest.

We're talking about Scotland. Not Shakey. If you really and truly DO want to talk about me. Feel free to message me anytime.

ps Shake the Disease , fabulous pop tune by Depeche Mode 1985. One of my favourites.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTGbfbttJys

Nothing I've said on this forum is misleading. Sturgeon has indeed started the referendum ball rolling and is leglislating now. There is absolutely no sign that she's bluffing either. If you can't deal with the simple truth of the above then that's fine. But it won't stop it happening should May lay out plans for a hard Brexit.

Shakethedisease

The_Last_Username wrote: »

You really are proving the point other posters make regarding you ignoring fact and making up your own.
Unlike you it would appear, I can read.

Then:
So no proof then; no evidence or supporting statements from elsewhere?
That is not proof.
It is the unsubstantiated word of one person.

Sigh. I said the option had come to light and been floated when she was giving evidence to the committee in June. This is the first time any of us had ever heard of it.
I also commented on how similar Angus Roberston's narratives in todays paper were to the the plan she'd spoken about in June. That's it. I didn't say it was in the works or would definitely be going ahead. I simply pointed out the similarities to it.

Medium Jock was kind enough to point out that this plan had also been discussed within the EU in 2014 regarding Scotland's wish to enter/remain a part of the EU at the time of independence.

I've made nothing up. :A I don't speak for Angus Robertson or Kirsty Hughes. But both of them imo were talking about exactly the same thing. I have no idea why you'd want proof of that. You can read the articles and make your own mind up I assume ?

Let me know when you've read them then we can discuss it further.

BTW, I don't think that another poster having had enough of your ignorance and evasion will stop others from taking their place.
Being a public forum there will ALWAYS be posters who see through your tactics and take you to task.

So ? People are free to scroll past or engage as they wish. Makes no odds to me as long as the thread stays on topic. Not name calling and inane chat about 'posting styles' and musing over other posters/strangers online personal characteristics. How boring is that to read.

Shakethedisease

Moto2 wrote: »

If only you didn't confuse facts with opinions and totally ignore or evade answering awkward questions about them, you may get more useful debate.

See above. If you've got something to say about Scotland or Scottish politics then say it, even if you profoundly disagree with me.

If you want to talk or have a personal axe to grind with me one to one you know where the message button is. :cool:

Moto2

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Medium Jock was kind enough to point out that this plan had also been discussed within the EU in 2014 regarding Scotland's wish to enter/remain a part of the EU at the time of independence.

No, He/She said the report of the supposed discussions was from 2014

Shakethedisease wrote: »

I've made nothing up.

see above