The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

elantan

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

If you keep editing I'll have to keep replying multiple times.

I've told you I would happily remain in the EEA/EFTA arrangement.

FoM - fine.
Pay into the single market - fine.

Restricting our ability to trade with whom we want - not fine. We should aim to have free trade with as many people as possible, including the EU.

i know i do apologise was on my phone which can be a bit tricksy

kabayiri

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Ah ha, finally, some semblance of reason!

You are correct on this point. Until the deal is ratified (because up until that point it can still change) Scots won't know what they're voting on. It would be unfair to ask Scottish people which way they want to jump before knowing the options that are in front of them.

Some people believe we will be given a step by step guide to the Brexit process, a bit like painting by numbers.

I just don't see how it can work like this. We are talking about negotiations with a body of 27 states. Even with a clear plan on UK side, we can't control the to'ing and fro'ing from the EU side.

Even when we are told things, how much is political spin and how much is brutal reality?

I agree that we will only know when the dust is settled.

mollycat

beecher2 wrote: »

Can you give me a vision of the type of Scotland you'd like to live in mollycat? I've tried to describe mine. Also, any thoughts on KF's article?

Okay, an answer in good faith

I think we both would wan't to live in a similar type of Scotland.

The things mentioned by you (and others) that our society should be like are admirable and no sane person would argue that equality, compassion and justice should not be the cornerstones of the way we govern.

Our disagreements are about perception.

I am happy with Scotland as it is; I see it as a prosperous, mainly tolerant nation where even those who are unable or unwilling to contribute can live within the safety net of benefits and state support.

I strongly dislike the ingrained sectarianism in Scotland and wish we could be less inward looking at times.

I am happy with my democratic choices. Yes, there are times when i am not governed by my party of choice, either in Holyrood or Westminster; I suck it up as i appreciate that this must be the case for numerous others through throughout the UK.

I do not feel aggrevied nor discriminated against by others in the UK; my opinion is we get a fantastic deal financially from being in the UK, which could not be bettered by leaving.

All in all I am happy with my lot, and even as someone as politically unsophisticated as you think, appreciate that in a finite financial context, governments need to make difficult decisions and that those should not be taken as slights against a particular geographical group.

The above is why I am motivated to argue for the status quo, constitutionally.

I suspect your perception of the reality of living in Scotland is different to mine, but would not be so presumptive to attempt to elaborate on that.

elantan

mollycat wrote: »

Really have to call this out in regard to comment made by in post #4301 regarding my level of understanding of "politics".

Please correct me if i have this wrong, as i feel accuracy of facts is important in political discussion.

1. People who disagree with a pro-independence standpoint are "unhinged"?

2. Presumably then the opposite viewpoint is logical, valid and openly transparent in those regards to all?

That in despite of the page after page of facts, logical reasoning and evidence to the contrary throughout the thread would suggest that the above points are not based in reality.

Quite an interesting morning on the thread.

Of the x2 pro indy posters active at present; 1 is happy to admit he won't be living in scotland long term, this after he has done his best to consigning the rest of us to an economic wilderness.

The other, immediately after professing himself/herself a more sophisticated political thinker than other posters, outs himself as one who regards the opposition viewpoint as "unhinged".

Keep reading folks; day after day, post after post, ridiculous assertion after ridiculous assertion.....this is the best advertisement for rejecting Scottish Independence out there!!

Himself? where dae ye get the him fae ?

mollycat

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

The cuts you will need will be on the same scale as Greece, maybe worse. I don't want to see British people go through that for some misguided nationalism.

That's why I post here.

Which is exactly why I post here.

People who love and live in Scotland should appreciate the efforts of TT and his/her like tryng to save Scotland from economic and political ruin, rather than questioning his/her motives.

mollycat

elantan wrote: »

Himself? where dae ye get the him fae ?

Is that your considered response to someone challenging your revelation that you have no intention to live in Scotland long term?

elantan

Ive already answered that one... so your assumption I am male?

beecher2

mollycat wrote: »

Okay, an answer in good faith

I think we both would wan't to live in a similar type of Scotland.

The things mentioned by you (and others) that our society should be like are admirable and no sane person would argue that equality, compassion and justice should not be the cornerstones of the way we govern.

Our disagreements are about perception.

I am happy with Scotland as it is; I see it as a prosperous, mainly tolerant nation where even those who are unable or unwilling to contribute can live within the safety net of benefits and state support.

I strongly dislike the ingrained sectarianism in Scotland and wish we could be less inward looking at times.

I am happy with my democratic choices. Yes, there are times when i am not governed by my party of choice, either in Holyrood or Westminster; I suck it up as i appreciate that this must be the case for numerous others through throughout the UK.

I do not feel aggrevied nor discriminated against by others in the UK; my opinion is we get a fantastic deal financially from being in the UK, which could not be bettered by leaving.

All in all I am happy with my lot, and even as someone as politically unsophisticated as you think, appreciate that in a finite financial context, governments need to make difficult decisions and that those should not be taken as slights against a particular geographical group.

The above is why I am motivated to argue for the status quo, constitutionally.

I suspect your perception of the reality of living in Scotland is different to mine, but would not be so presumptive to attempt to elaborate on that.

I agree with much of what you say. The only real difference is that I don't want to feel that I live in a country which receives pocket money from the UK and is seen as a subsidy junkie by some. I want us to stand on our own two feet and make our own decisions.

I am fearful of Conservative domination of UK politics and do feel aggrieved that we have a tory government when they only have 1 MP in Scotland - that does seem to me to be a democratic deficit, but am aware that someone who saw themselves as British wouldn't see things the same way as me.

I suppose what I'm saying is that it isn't all down to GERS figures and where Scotland stands right now as part of the UK. It is about how we could be in the future as an independent nation.

TrickyTree83

And now we've moved away from the salient points of the conversation to discuss why I'm even posting here, why elantan is a man and why blogs can or cannot be trusted.

Surely if independence is the right choice, the easy choice, there must be an economic golden goose somewhere.

Because when people realise their pensions are gone, they will retire at 75 and have nothing, their jobs will leave for the very place they've just voted to secede from, tuition is no longer free, prescriptions must be paid for, the cost of living soars, there's going to be a hell of a lot of angry people in Scotland, angry with you lot, the SNP, and the dishonest memes saying "Yes we can!".

beecher2

From KF's article today

Conventional political arguments do not win referendums. We know this from the AV vote in 2011, the indyref vote in 2014 and the Brexit vote in June. What counts in a referendum is a successful appeal to people’s gut instinct.
Michael Gove was right about experts, galling as that may be. When voters get to the polling booth in a referendum, they do not engage in an intellectual debate with themselves on the pros and cons of the issue in question.
Instead they do a quick check on how they feel about it. They trust their intuitive feelings and vote accordingly.
In Scotland right now, people’s feelings about the United Kingdom are a combination of disappointment and revulsion. There is a gut reaction when confronted with the Tories’ lurch to the xenophobic right on a wave of British nationalism of a particularly pernicious type. Voters are not in the mood to defend the UK, let alone fight for its survival