The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

TrickyTree83

beecher2 wrote: »

None of what you write is definitive as it is all down to negotiation. It is all just your opinion and I find it aggravating that you think that only you know for sure how things will pan out. I don't know what will happen with pensions, was merely stating what the Telegraph believed would happen. I don't believe that the rUK will tell No voters in Scotland that they can't retain rUK citizenship, but again I don't know for sure. I have no idea why you spent so much time on energy on something you have no say in, particularly when there's so many uncertainties with Brexit.

No it's nothing to do with opinion, mass dual citizenship is unworkable, and I am affected as I outlined here:

Just think for a second, about the constitutional difficulties there would be if 5m people in Scotland would still be eligible to pop across the border and vote on UK matters. When citizenship denotes membership of the state and having a say in how that state is ran. No no no, you would be opting out of that situation by claiming independence. You cannot realistically, legally and morally have both the ability to run Scotland as an independent state and have millions of people take a day trip to vote in UK elections. It's farcical.

I personally do not want people from an independent Scotland to determine the direction of the country in which I, my family and children live. You and I presume the independence movement are advocating representation without taxation. What right do you have to be able to do that? I won't be allowed the same rights in Scotland. The citizenship question is quite clear. Usually dual citizenship is not such a big problem, but when you're talking about millions of people it is. Citizens of an independent Scotland having a say on UK foreign policy, welfare policy, defence policy, planning, environmental, etc...etc.. it's unworkable and it simply won't happen. You will be asked to choose.

Do you think that after Brexit the citizens of the UK should retain EU citizenship? The EU don't think so, neither do rational people. The independence movement is irrational in so many respects but certainly on the point of dual citizenship. Then you'll need to set up embassies in countries, fund it all to provide consular assistance to Scots abroad.

So now we've put that to bed, because it's just ridiculous to suggest that you'll all have the ability to affect the UK as you do now, what about pensions? Do you agree with elantan that you'll still be in receipt of UK pensions?

antrobus

elantan wrote: »

ahem Britain is a geographical area.... and dont forget its Scotland that gives it the Great bit ;);)

No. The 'Great' bit is to distinguish Grande Bretagne from Bretagne.

antrobus

kabayiri wrote: »

I'm sure there are plenty of people who are unclear on how the state pension scheme is funded, both in Scotland and down here....

The National Insurance Fund. I believe there is a balance of some £20bn or so. Presumably 8% of that (or whatever) would go to Scotland.

kabayiri wrote: »

...
Fundamentally though, why is this a concern?...

Well....

kabayiri wrote: »

...
Can Scotland not afford to pay a basic pension for it's pensioners once independent? ..

..with a deficit of close on 10% of GDP the answer could well be yes.

kabayiri

antrobus wrote: »

The National Insurance Fund. I believe there is a balance of some £20bn or so. Presumably 8% of that (or whatever) would go to Scotland.



Well....


..with a deficit of close on 10% of GDP the answer could well be yes.

So the deficit limits them to hard choices, but they are still choices.

They can raise retirement age; increase general taxation; increase sales tax. All that lovely independence freedom we in the UK take for granted.

Of course, after a while the voters may come to hate the politicians in power. That's what usually happens

Conrad

Wont Scotland have to join the Euro to be in the EU which these days is going to be a lot more demanding on new membership rules - no descent, just full on integrated Europe?


I hope for Scotland's sake the transference of wealthy states funds to the dependent club med and communist states does not come as a shock (Nicola keeps saying Scotland is one of worlds wealthiest nations - many times in the conference speech).


New entrants such as Albania want those Scottish groats

Thrugelmir

Shakethedisease wrote: »

In that case every ex-pat that lives in Spain, France or elsewhere collecting their pension should be whistling for theirs too. What you've described is never going to happen to Scots who've paid into the UK pot for the last 4 or 5 decades.

So IScotland can set the terms of divorce without repercussions. The truth seems rather inconvenient then. Any suggestion that the UK electorate may elect a hostile Government to the proposals would no doubt be pooh poohed very quickly. Though it remains a distinct possibility. Personally I would have no hesitation in voting such a party in if it where in the wider interests of the remainder of the UK. Divorce isn't an a carte menu you know. It's a tough hard bargaining set of compromises. Where Scotland has far more to lose.

.string.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

You really are misinformed.

UK citizenship is retained - there is no mechanism to strip UK citizenship from millions of existing citizens.

I've no principle objections to paying UK pensions to British Ex-pats, but the shear magnitude of increased pension entitlements by those who no longer contribute may force a change. At present those who have left GB can undertake a voluntary subscription to add entitlement years (which is what I did during the 34 years I was away from the UK).

But things can change.

My son, who lives in Holland and is likely to remain there, decided to apply for Dutch citizenship. But a month or so before he would have been able to complete the process the Dutch passed a law banning dual citizenship. He stopped the application

Such a move is possible for the UK if things get costly. It would stop the accumulation of further rights. Another solution would be for Scotland to pick up any accumulated rights following separation.

After all, separation would mean separation, to coin a phrase.

Of course hanging over all of that is the small matter of Scotland paying its share of the National debt so I will be interested to see the budget of the SNP which they should now show the Scottish people to see how these things are going to be financed in Natland.

elantan

antrobus wrote: »

No. The 'Great' bit is to distinguish Grande Bretagne from Bretagne.

Ahem ....



http://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofBritain/The-UK-Great-Britain-Whats-the-Difference/

Check oot 1707 ... funnily enough that's when Scotland joined Britain and the prefix Great was added

TrickyTree83

.string. wrote: »

I've no principle objections to paying UK pensions to British Ex-pats, but the shear magnitude of increased pension entitlements by those who no longer contribute may force a change. At present those who have left GB can undertake a voluntary subscription to add entitlement years (which is what I did during the 34 years I was away from the UK).

But things can change.

My son, who lives in Holland and is likely to remain there, decided to apply for Dutch citizenship. But a month or so before he would have been able to complete the process the Dutch passed a law banning dual citizenship. He stopped the application

Such a move is possible for the UK if things get costly. It would stop the accumulation of further rights. Another solution would be for Scotland to pick up any accumulated rights following separation.

After all, separation would mean separation, to coin a phrase.

Of course hanging over all of that is the small matter of Scotland paying its share of the National debt so I will be interested to see the budget of the SNP which they should now show the Scottish people to see how these things are going to be financed in Natland.

Hamish is also very wrong about this:

UK citizenship is retained - there is no mechanism to strip UK citizenship from millions of existing citizens.

The mechanism would be called law, voted for in Westminster. You leave, you lose the right to have a say in what Westminster decides to do about your British citizenship.

It's ridiculous that you think you can retain citizenship of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland when the Great Britain part no longer exists because you chose to leave.

The name of country could well change to United Kingdom of Britain and Northern Ireland, and these citizens will be British and Scottish people will simply be Scottish. You may be, I would say should be, asked to choose between the two, at which point Scottish people could become a minority in their own country if more people decide to retain their British citizenship. Off the back of that you may even have a backlash against the very idea of independence itself.

The arrogance of it all is astounding. To believe that you'll continue to be welcomed as citizens of a state you are spurning. I'd back the government all the way to force Scottish people to choose between their UK citizenship or Scottish citizenship if they vote for independence. That's not callous or hateful, you're choosing to leave. And there is a an underlying UK constitutional reason to make this distinction.

The_Last_Username

elantan wrote: »

Ahem ....



http://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofBritain/The-UK-Great-Britain-Whats-the-Difference/

Check oot 1707 ... funnily enough that's when Scotland joined Britain and the prefix Great was added

Wrong.
Or at least not completely accurate, as is usual with the SNP and their acolytes who have a tendency to be (ahem) selective in the choice of terminology and definitions as well as other areas already discussed within this thread.

The Greco-Egyptian scientist Ptolemy referred to the larger island as great Britain and to Ireland as little Britain in his work Almagest (147–148 AD)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Britain

Also:

Geoffrey of Monmouth in his pseudohistorical Historia Regum Britanniae (c. 1136) refers to the island of Great Britain as Britannia major ("Greater Britain"), to distinguish it from Britannia minor ("Lesser Britain"), the continental region which approximates to modern Brittany

P.S. - I personally prefer the old adage that Scots put the "Brain" into Britain.
Sadly however this particular thread shows little evidence of that.