The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

beecher2

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Edit: No I'm not.


https://www.freemovement.org.uk/dual-citizenship-and-scottish-independence/

It would appear you are mis-informed, only the Scottish government appear to suggest that everyone in Scotland would retain UK citizenship alongside Scottish citizenship.

He's thinking now that he'll keep his EU citizenship because of his Scottish mum
https://twitter.com/colinyeo1/status/746291881294848000

beecher2

kabayiri wrote: »

Thing is, wouldn't you ideally want a clean break?

I'm sure some scheme could be concocted whereby iScotland makes NI payments in return for state pension entitlements, but what if a future rUK government decides to cut back on state pensions to save money?

It strikes me that you are not really that independent then.

In a similar vein the UK was always a half-committed member of Europe. We didn't buy in to Schengen; we didn't buy in to the Euro.

I would, yes. Tricky has taken us down another path by stating opinion as fact, and then getting rattled when he's shown otherwise so I think we're off on a wild tangent to be honest.

TrickyTree83

beecher2 wrote: »

Tricky, you do know that people born in Belfast can choose Irish or British citizenship? Or indeed both.

Sure, because they're part of Britain.

If Scotland leaves Britain/UK only familial heritage will grant British/UK citizenship. They may even be asked to choose between Scottish or British citizenship at the point of independence according to the UK Constitutional Law Association.

They will not get UK pensions since they won't be paying into the UK's NI scheme.

TrickyTree83

beecher2 wrote: »

He's thinking now that he'll keep his EU citizenship because of his Scottish mum
https://twitter.com/colinyeo1/status/746291881294848000

The author of the article is quoting Nick Barber:

https://ukconstitutionallaw.org/2014/08/04/nick-barber-after-the-vote-the-citizenship-question/#comment-26061

beecher2

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Sure, because they're part of Britain.
.

But not part of the Republic of Ireland.

Please just admit that you don't know for sure what's going to happen - none of us do. There are very few absolutes here, it is all down to negotiation.

TrickyTree83

beecher2 wrote: »

I would, yes. Tricky has taken us down another path by stating opinion as fact, and then getting rattled when he's shown otherwise so I think we're off on a wild tangent to be honest.

We were talking about pensions because elantan seems to think the UK is going to continue to pay Scottish pensions. You do too because of an article written in the Telegraph.

If Scotland ceases to be part of Britain, the citizens of Scotland clearly have a choice between being Scottish citizens or British citizens living in Scotland. Only if they have familial heritage from the rest of the UK could they opt for dual citizenship.

On the topic of pensions, and independent Scotland where Scottish taxpayers are not paying into the UK NI system will not be in receipt of UK pensions. All Scottish liabilities, which includes the welfare state will be transferred to Scotland.

How difficult is it to understand?

TrickyTree83

beecher2 wrote: »

But not part of the Republic of Ireland.

Please just admit that you don't know for sure what's going to happen - none of us do. There are very few absolutes here, it is all down to negotiation.

If there's a region of Scotland - such as Dumfries and Galloway - that secedes from Scotland and remains part of Britain then possibly a similar situation could arise where they could choose to have either a Scottish or British passport based on being born there. But it's quite clear that if you dissolve the act of union you have all of the consequences that arise from that.

Just think for a second, about the constitutional difficulties there would be if 5m people in Scotland would still be eligible to pop across the border and vote on UK matters. When citizenship denotes membership of the state and having a say in how that state is ran. No no no, you would be opting out of that situation by claiming independence. You cannot realistically, legally and morally have both the ability to run Scotland as an independent state and have millions of people take a day trip to vote in UK elections. It's farcical.

beecher2

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

We were talking about pensions because elantan seems to think the UK is going to continue to pay Scottish pensions. You do too because of an article written in the Telegraph.

If Scotland ceases to be part of Britain, the citizens of Scotland clearly have a choice between being Scottish citizens or British citizens living in Scotland. Only if they have familial heritage from the rest of the UK could they opt for dual citizenship.

On the topic of pensions, and independent Scotland where Scottish taxpayers are not paying into the UK NI system will not be in receipt of UK pensions. All Scottish liabilities, which includes the welfare state will be transferred to Scotland.

How difficult is it to understand?

None of what you write is definitive as it is all down to negotiation. It is all just your opinion and I find it aggravating that you think that only you know for sure how things will pan out. I don't know what will happen with pensions, was merely stating what the Telegraph believed would happen. I don't believe that the rUK will tell No voters in Scotland that they can't retain rUK citizenship, but again I don't know for sure. I have no idea why you spent so much time on energy on something you have no say in, particularly when there's so many uncertainties with Brexit.

elantan

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Sure, because they're part of Britain.

If Scotland leaves Britain/UK only familial heritage will grant British/UK citizenship. They may even be asked to choose between Scottish or British citizenship at the point of independence according to the UK Constitutional Law Association.

They will not get UK pensions since they won't be paying into the UK's NI scheme.

ahem Britain is a geographical area.... and dont forget its Scotland that gives it the Great bit ;);)

kabayiri

beecher2 wrote: »

I would, yes. Tricky has taken us down another path by stating opinion as fact, and then getting rattled when he's shown otherwise so I think we're off on a wild tangent to be honest.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who are unclear on how the state pension scheme is funded, both in Scotland and down here.

Fundamentally though, why is this a concern?

Can Scotland not afford to pay a basic pension for it's pensioners once independent?

It seems to me that it is a matter of will. For maybe the first time you will get the choice to spend on free education or more pension for the elderly, or any other balancing act.

This sounds exactly like the kind of levers Shakey refers to.

An independent Scotland will face all sorts of spending decisions, some of which have been masked by UK contributions.

That's the time when your politicians really earn their crust and prove their worth.