The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

kabayiri

skintmacflint wrote: »

Small problem there is no 'pot' . Or perhaps I should say no accumulated fund. That 'pot' as you call it is derived from real time contributions. During the Indy Ref it was clearly established that Scotland would be paying from its new real time 'pot' for its own pensioners. Would also remind you Swinney had already expressed worries on Scotland being able to afford to pay pensions considering the high percentage of us oldies up here. And that was before the oil price crash.

Sometimes facts are a b****r for plausible misrepresentation.

The mechanics underpinning the transition to a newly independent country are just as crucial IMO. Even if all the negotiations go the right way for Scotland; if the economy of their main trading party (rUK) tanks at the same time then this will compound the economic problems.

Independence or not. Scotland and rUK economies are interdependent. That won't end straight away. Perhaps you should time independence when both economies are on the up.

It seems a risky time to adopt independence.

TrickyTree83

elantan wrote: »

Pensioners contracts are with the UK ... if people in Scotland don't get them then people in England Wales Ireland Canada and Spain won't be either

Debt is debt and needs to be paid ... it won't be Scotland debt it will be the UK''s we can't legally take it ... but we can if we choose to help you out a wee bit with it

HAHA!

This is a joke right?

You want to be independent but you want me, my wife and my family to pay for YOUR pensioners and you don't want to pay for ours?

Jog on, that's about as likely as finding a unicorn that farts gold. Anyone who agrees with you on this is just as delusional.

These pensions will become unfunded liabilities in iScotland, nowhere else. Do you guys think anything through?

kabayiri

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

...
These pensions will become unfunded liabilities in iScotland, nowhere else. Do you guys think anything through?

How can they be anything else? Rightly or wrongly future state pensions are paid out of future tax receipts, just as it is the case today.

Of course, you may worry about the number of income tax payers putting into the pot, but luckily Hamish has a solution for this.

A newly independent Scotland would have to adopt truly massive immigration. That would require serious upfront capital to build the infrastructure. I'm sure we could lend them the money for a decent return.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Delusion about what ? Droning on and on about how the EU won't want Scotland doesn't make it so.

Everyone that posts stuff like that is very hot on the 'won't want'.. but never actually say why and it's not like any of you have insider information. Why don't you enlighten us all with why the EU don't want Scotland to be a part of it after 40 years of, well being a part of it. What's in it for the EU to snub Scotland after they've just voted 62% to remain within it ?

We've already established that just because Theresa May might not want a Scottish referendum isn't any reason for the Scottish Govt not to hold one like they said they would ( May 16 election manifesto ) anyway.

Well the independence supporters are droning on about the EU being the be all and end all @ 11% of your trade.

They weren't in 2014.

But it's a useful tool in 2016, if I was a die hard independence nut I'd of voted to remain because the SNP had put it in their manifesto to have another independence referendum if the UK voted to leave as a whole.

It's my belief that the Scottish vote to remain in the EU is tarnished, not entirely but definitely not 'Daz white', the possible upcoming advisory referendum on independence only sanctioned by the Scottish government exists because of this manifesto pledge, and the way the Scottish voted.

There's no benefit to Scotland being in the EU and not in the UK when the UK leaves except probably free movement for your holidays or job opportunities on the continent. But in skilled employment if you're good enough you'll get it regardless of the visa requirements.

We shouldn't be discussing why the EU will/won't want Scotland, but why the hell Scotland wants the EU over and above the UK?

Why Scotland wants to be told what to do by Brussels with a smaller say in how it's run, a worse deal than the one you'll have in the UK outside the EU?

Why Scotland wants to jeopardise 64% of it's external trade for the sake of 11%?

Why Scotland wants to sabotage itself? If you claim Brexit is sabotaging the UK, why would you opt for something which is an order of magnitude worse for Scotland than Brexit?

The answer I'll get will probably be something like "Because politics". If you independence supporters want to screw your fellow Scots for a misplaced belief shouldn't you also support Brexit, since according to you that's also screwing fellow Brits?

There's not one compelling positive argument for independence except the political one, because the entire eligible vote of 4m is being led up the garden path by 1m - 1.5m SNP voters who believe in things like Whiskey Export Duty, Puff The Magic Dragon and the Scottish government getting their own GERS statistics wrong to promote the Union.

Laughable.

elantan

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

HAHA!

This is a joke right?

You want to be independent but you want me, my wife and my family to pay for YOUR pensioners and you don't want to pay for ours?

Jog on, that's about as likely as finding a unicorn that farts gold. Anyone who agrees with you on this is just as delusional.

These pensions will become unfunded liabilities in iScotland, nowhere else. Do you guys think anything through?

Do people in Spain pay into your pensions just now ?

TrickyTree83

elantan wrote: »

Do people in Spain pay into your pensions just now ?

What?

No. What does Spain have to do with anything?

The state pension is paid for by national insurance contributions, which come from the wages of people working today.

Effectively, each working generation pays for the older generation above them.

All of it in the UK and nothing to do with the EU as an institution, EU nationals that pay NI will be contributing because they live and work in the UK.

The state pension is paid to UK expats by the UK government, so retirees in Spain get paid by the UK government.

So again, what has Spain got to do with it?

michaels

elantan wrote: »

Do people in Spain pay into your pensions just now ?

Wookie defence?

skintmacflint

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

HAHA!

This is a joke right?

You want to be independent but you want me, my wife and my family to pay for YOUR pensioners and you don't want to pay for ours?

These pensions will become unfunded liabilities in iScotland, nowhere else. Do you guys think anything through?

Possibly not sadly. Could be they read some plausible but misrepresentative article on WOS and other Indy blog sites during the Indy Ref.

beecher2

Even the Telegraph felt that Scottish pensioners would probably be treated as expats.

Britain would effectively treat Scottish pensioners as “expats”, who would continue to receive pensions like former citizens who have moved abroad for retirement.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/pensions/11087059/Scottish-independence-how-state-pensions-would-be-handed-over-and-other-key-questions-answered.html

TrickyTree83

I was trying to get the indy supporters to tell us why they want to remain in the EU over and above the UK and we end up talking about why Spain does or does not pay into the UK's national insurance scheme?

If the argument for becoming independent to join (or remain in) the EU is so compelling it shouldn't be difficult.

It'd be nice if the reasons weren't 62% voted for it since it's clear that vote can be called into question, there should be some sound policy arguments. Like it's better for the thistle, or for fishermen, or the economy as a whole when they sell more Saltires because they'll need to put them up across all the embassies they're going to need to set up and fund.