The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

TrickyTree83

beecher2 wrote: »

I don't trust the tories with workers' rights at all. This is my personal opinion which is going to be different from your own and so I hope you will accept that and not take the thread down another road. There aren't always 'facts' in a political debate, and none of us know what will happen in the future, but that was my judgement at the time.

There's also no guarantee with the EU protecting the minimums.

The benefit of not being beholden to the EU is that if a political party in Britain removes these working rights, you can vote for a party that promises to restore them and you have a direct influence over it.

If you're in the EU and for whatever reason they remove these working rights, it doesn't matter who you elect in your own country, you're stuck with the rules.

Thrugelmir

beecher2 wrote: »

I don't trust the tories with workers' rights at all. This is my personal opinion which is going to be different from your own and so I hope you will accept that and not take the thread down another road. There aren't always 'facts' in a political debate, and none of us know what will happen in the future, but that was my judgement at the time.

Sounds just like our local Union rep. Waffles endlessly without factual substance. Driven by ideology alone. A closed mind. A throw back to the 70's.

beecher2

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Sounds just like our local Union rep. Waffles endlessly without factual substance. Driven by ideology alone. A closed mind. A throw back to the 70's.

No, don't recognise myself there. I just believe that the Tories are not interested in protecting workers' rights and will do all they can to chip away at the rights which have been hard fought for over the years. We're all entitled to have different political views you know.

TrickyTree83

beecher2 wrote: »

No, don't recognise myself there. I just believe that the Tories are not interested in protecting workers' rights and will do all they can to chip away at the rights which have been hard fought for over the years. We're all entitled to have different political views you know.

So what's your solution then if the other 27 member states think they've had enough of workers rights, it's hampering their economies, lets get rid of them. Leaving?

mayonnaise

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

T
If you're in the EU and for whatever reason they remove these working rights, it doesn't matter who you elect in your own country, you're stuck with the rules.

Well no.
You said yourself we can (and do) go above the EU minimum.

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

You voted to protect workers rights, which are higher/better in the UK because of legislation in Westminster than the EU minimum?

Thrugelmir

beecher2 wrote: »

No, don't recognise myself there. I just believe that the Tories are not interested in protecting workers' rights and will do all they can to chip away at the rights which have been hard fought for over the years. We're all entitled to have different political views you know.

Differing opinions is very important I agree. So is an open mind. People are hypocrites. Scargill being a classic example. Not the person that his supporters thought he was. Very much a self interested individual.

TrickyTree83

mayonnaise wrote: »

Well no.
You said yourself we can (and do) go above the EU minimum.

So if the UK, with a track record of Conservative governments not eroding working rights that are higher than the EU minimum whilst being in the EU, then leaves the EU, then by default according to beecher we're going to see Conservative governments erode those working rights that were higher than EU minimums, that could already have been eroded to the minimum requirement during previous terms. Yes?

I don't buy that argument at all. There's no track record, there's no evidence.

If the EU minimum rights were your benchmark or backstop and they disappear from within the EU, what's the solution?

Since we're able to say things without evidence, what's to stop a far right-wing government coming to power in an independent Scotland and eroding your workers rights to the EU minimum to liberate the Scottish economy from these regulations? Further still, what if the EU erode their own rules on workers rights and this independent Scotland follows the minimum all the way down?

beecher2

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Differing opinions is very important I agree. So is an open mind. People are hypocrites. Scargill being a classic example. Not the person that his supporters thought he was. Very much a self interested individual.

People let you down, very aware of that and I am wary of seeing the SNP as the heroes of Scotland. Power corrupts and all that, unfortunately.

beecher2

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

So if the UK, with a track record of Conservative governments not eroding working rights that are higher than the EU minimum whilst being in the EU, then leaves the EU, then by default according to beecher we're going to see Conservative governments erode those working rights that were higher than EU minimums, that could already have been eroded to the minimum requirement during previous terms. Yes?

I don't buy that argument at all. There's no track record, there's no evidence.

If the EU minimum rights were your benchmark or backstop and they disappear from within the EU, what's the solution?

Since we're able to say things without evidence, what's to stop a far right-wing government coming to power in an independent Scotland and eroding your workers rights to the EU minimum to liberate the Scottish economy from these regulations? Further still, what if the EU erode their own rules on workers rights and this independent Scotland follows the minimum all the way down?

You can 'what if' about any scenario to fit any agenda. This is heading down another dead end and I really do wish you'd accept that just because someone sees something differently to you, doesn't mean they're wrong.

kabayiri

beecher2 wrote: »

No, don't recognise myself there. I just believe that the Tories are not interested in protecting workers' rights and will do all they can to chip away at the rights which have been hard fought for over the years. We're all entitled to have different political views you know.

My (and probably yours, and everyone else here) shopping habits have done more to erode workers rights than an employment minister.

You expect a help desk to answer all your questions straight away => we have hundreds of thousands of displaced call centre jobs in India and elsewhere.

You want a laptop for the price of a few nights out => millions of people in China and Korea and Malaysia work for longer hours and under harsher conditions than you would ever contemplate, just to deliver you that cheap product.

When we talk workers rights, do we include the 6 day week / 12 hour a day Chinese factory worker? Do we include the 11.5 hour day for the Indian call centre worker (with a typical 4 hour commute on top) ?

It's this thing called globalisation which is redefining the base level in living standards.

Being in or out the EU won't stop this.