The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

islandannie

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/11481010/SNPs-whopping-exaggeration-on-oil-revenues-laid-bare.html

Can the SNP be trusted,well make your own mind up.

Shakethedisease

islandannie wrote: »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/11481010/SNPs-whopping-exaggeration-on-oil-revenues-laid-bare.html

Can the SNP be trusted,well make your own mind up.

It will be Scottish voters who decide that in the end. Not the Telegraph editorial team. :A

Oh those articles are ages old. Sorry I bothered replying.

islandannie

The party of the people wouldn,t lie would they?

http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2012/10/24/bare-faced-liar-alex-salmond-s-reputation-in-the-mud

islandannie

As a union of countries the UK prided itself for the democratic non violent way it conducted it,s affairs.

Then along comes the SNP.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/574821/Eddie-Izzard-slams-violence-as-SNP-men-start-street-brawls-on-Labour-walkabout-in-Glasgow

zagubov

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Problem number one.



Spain springs to mind as a country with immediate objections.

C'mon even I can remember that Spain's lead by Rajoy, who's three times refused to say he'll object to Scotland joining.

Because he's a Galician politician who need to keep his fishing-dependant homeland sweet.

Unless he'll discovered how to plant magic fish trees to replace the 25% of Spain's fish caught in Scotland's eu waters.:D

skintmacflint

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Scotland isn't a region of the UK. That's where your argument falls down. Constitutionally ( if this is what you're inferring ) it's a signatory to the Act of Union 1707 joining two nations together politically. Reverse that with a referendum, which in essence is what an independence referendum achieves.. and you have two nations again. Just because England is bigger doesn't make Scotland a region of it. Neither historically nor currently.

.

What difference does that make when only Westminster can grant Independence to Scotland . And it won't until and unless a time comes that it suits Westminster.

Not that it will be Independence for Scotland anyway, with Sturgeon desperate to remain or rejoin the EU on preferential terms. No doubt you will suggest Sturgeon is merely trying to protect Scottish jobs etc which may be lost with Brexit, or Hoover up finacial services work to Scotland in event of hard Brexit.

But we all know that's not the case at all. She was perfectly willing to risk them during the Indy Ref. Otherwise she wouldn't have lied with Salmond over his EU non existent legal advice at that time. Even prepared to squander £22,000 on legal fees to prevent their lie being exposed. Neither of them cared about potential job losses then.

Has been suggested Sturgeon is desperate for the UK to put the blockers on her 2nd Indy ref, as a way out for her. She can hang onto her well paid position, keep on whining about Westminster and keep her believers onside.

No doubt it's why she's desperate to remain or join the EU, so she can blame them for all of Scotland's woes, as well as a nice subsidy.

skintmacflint

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Bad choice for an analogy I'd agree. But when the Telegraph run with fawning articles like this, then there's far more to be worried about

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/07/theresa-may-is-following-enoch-powell--by-actually-listening-to/

Certainly was, and has perhaps cost SNP a number of votes.Wife's friend , run off her feet looking after 90 year old parents with dementia is fizzing about it. She jumped ship from Labour to SNP in 2014. Said she's sick to death of SNP showing themselves up to be no different from their predecessors. She's got a large extended SNP voting family too.

As for Telegraph article , well we need look no further for fawning than The National , SNP's daily joke paper. That's the problem SNP have I think, they claim to be different while being just the same as, sometimes worse, than every other established party. Especially now they've grown in size in Scotland.

Shakethedisease

skintmacflint wrote: »

What difference does that make when only Westminster can grant Independence to Scotland . And it won't until and unless a time comes that it suits Westminster.

Not that it will be Independence for Scotland anyway, with Sturgeon desperate to remain or rejoin the EU on preferential terms. No doubt you will suggest Sturgeon is merely trying to protect Scottish jobs etc which may be lost with Brexit, or Hoover up finacial services work to Scotland in event of hard Brexit.

But we all know that's not the case at all. She was perfectly willing to risk them during the Indy Ref. Otherwise she wouldn't have lied with Salmond over his EU non existent legal advice at that time. Even prepared to squander £22,000 on legal fees to prevent their lie being exposed. Neither of them cared about potential job losses then.

Has been suggested Sturgeon is desperate for the UK to put the blockers on her 2nd Indy ref, as a way out for her. She can hang onto her well paid position, keep on whining about Westminster and keep her believers onside.

No doubt it's why she's desperate to remain or join the EU, so she can blame them for all of Scotland's woes, as well as a nice subsidy.

You're in the end game of the Union as we know it right now regardless of whatever happens in the next few years. Scottish Labour are at all time lows with no way back. Even head honcho's are mulling over the idea of independence.. and if Ruth Davidson leaves the Scottish Tories for a safe English seat it's all over for them too. Both parties rely on voters over 55 to 60+ as their core vote. Scotland's under 55's as a majority vote middle ground SNP or left wing Green.

This is only ever going to end up one way politically. Either now, or in a few years time. The only hope is a social democratic Labour leader who looks like getting into power in Westminster. And I don't rule it out but it does look unlikely for a long while yet. But nearly half of Scotland has left Westminster and the Union already. It won't be long until another 5 or 10 % do likewise. May has done the Union absolutely no favours in the last few days, nor is likely to in the coming few years. She's too much of a Thatcher reminder with added xenophobia. This Conservative party conference will be played on loop for the next few years on social media.

The press spent years trying to pin something on Salmond and never could. Like him or loathe him he was never going to be stupid enough to lie with that amount of intense scrutiny on him. Neither will Sturgeon. Instead headlines have to be doctored or spun to suit, and again, half of Scotland got very wise to that about two years ago.

I realise sometimes this is tough to hear but the Labour party was the only glue holding the UK together in consensus politics. That's gone now and Scotland and the rest of the UK are diverging at ever increasing rates. Brexit might be the thing that finally snaps it or not. But the SNP look likely to be dominant in Scotland for a while yet with ever increasing numbers of younger voters getting on board... whereas before that used to be the Labour party. Sometimes you just have to face, like I did in 2014 that other voters don't always vote as you'd like. But the bigger picture at the moment isn't any sort of resurgent support for Scotland within the UK.

If there's a 'hard brexit', there will be another Scottish independence referendum before the UK leaves the EU. That's how it'll play out in Holyrood for Scots residents with a vote whatever Westminster says. We're all just waiting to see if Theresa will actually go through with it all first. We'll see before March.

The_Last_Username

Shakethedisease wrote: »

You're in the end game of the Union as we know it right now regardless of whatever happens in the next few years. Scottish Labour are at all time lows with no way back. Even head honcho's are mulling over the idea of independence.. and if Ruth Davidson leaves the Scottish Tories for a safe English seat it's all over for them too. Both parties rely on voters over 55 to 60+ as their core vote. Scotland's under 55's as a majority vote middle ground SNP or left wing Green.

This is only ever going to end up one way politically. Either now, or in a few years time. The only hope is a social democratic Labour leader who looks like getting into power in Westminster. And I don't rule it out but it does look unlikely for a long while yet. But nearly half of Scotland has left Westminster and the Union already. It won't be long until another 5 or 10 % do likewise. May has done the Union absolutely no favours in the last few days, nor is likely to in the coming few years. She's too much of a Thatcher reminder with added xenophobia. This Conservative party conference will be played on loop for the next few years on social media.

The press spent years trying to pin something on Salmond and never could. Like him or loathe him he was never going to be stupid enough to lie with that amount of intense scrutiny on him. Neither will Sturgeon. Instead headlines have to be doctored or spun to suit, and again, half of Scotland got very wise to that about two years ago.

I realise sometimes this is tough to hear but the Labour party was the only glue holding the UK together in consensus politics. That's gone now and Scotland and the rest of the UK are diverging at ever increasing rates. Brexit might be the thing that finally snaps it or not. But the SNP look likely to be dominant in Scotland for a while yet with ever increasing numbers of younger voters getting on board... whereas before that used to be the Labour party. Sometimes you just have to face, like I did in 2014 that other voters don't always vote as you'd like. But the bigger picture at the moment isn't any sort of resurgent support for Scotland within the UK.

If there's a 'hard brexit', there will be another Scottish independence referendum before the UK leaves the EU. That's how it'll play out in Holyrood for Scots residents with a vote whatever Westminster says. We're all just waiting to see if Theresa will actually go through with it all first. We'll see before March.

Oh boy, that is some wishful thinking with I note lots of "if's" - so here's an alternative train of thought which is much more likely than the above:

The "end game of the union" as it has been so succinctly put is by no means the certainty some imagine, as has been repeatedly explained in this very thread.
Just to refresh memories, explain please how a Scottish budget would work - and what currency would be used?
Does anyone really think that a majority of us canny Scots are really going to want to live with the drastic cuts which would by necessity result from independence?

As for this only going one way politically, that may be correct - though it will most likely NOT be heading in the direction stated above.
Not unless the SNP drastically change tack. Their lack of real planning is already far too evident for many Scots.
We have seen the collapse of Labour - are we about to see similar with the SNP?
It is quite possible if they insist upon their current tactics; no, I'm not suggesting immediately but it is nonetheless looking increasingly possible.
These "younger voters" upon which it is said the SNP rely will begin to see the SNP for what they truly are; liars and dreamers with no solid plans. Many Scots are already well aware of this fact - hence (again as has been said before) why turnouts in Scottish elections are not higher.

Of course, should EITHER Brexit prove to be a success or even to have little real impact on Scots, OR (as increasingly seems possible) if the Eurozone undergoes dramatic change then Scots will have even more to consider should independence be proposed.
The obvious outcome being uncertainty over the future and a "better the devil you know" stance rather than a leap into the unknown.

Again, there is absolutely no way that an independence vote for Scotland will happen before the UK leaves the EU.
As has been explained in great detail many times before in this thread.
Dreams of another indyref before Brexit are therefore just that; dreams.
The foolish proverbial stamping of feet over this issue and at this time is doing nothing to further the cause of independence.

TrickyTree83

Brexit will finish the independence argument for the foreseeable future, purely because of the hard brexit and the economic impact of splitting away from the Union and being hamstrung by EU trade policy.

The single market is not important to Scotland, not now, not in the medium term future. Perhaps in 50 years or more, yes, if Scottish trade is done overwhelmingly with the EU and much less so with the rUK. Until that time, your arguments make no sense.

You can bleat on about Labour, Greens, SNP, Lib-Dems, Nasty Tories, as much as you wish and so can every single other independence supporter. It will not change the numbers and it will not mitigate the impact of splitting away from the Union and joining the EU. It's just bluster.

Spain's opinion doesn't matter whether you think they're pro-Scotland or not.

Verhofstadt's opinion doesn't matter, whether you think he's pro-Scotland or not.

Your opinions don't matter, whether you're pro-independence or not.

My opinions don't matter, whether I'm pro-independence or not.

Why? Because the numbers do not stack up.

So anyone in Scotland with self-interest that trumps their belief in a political ideal, which is likely to be the majority, i.e.

- Can I clothe my family?
- Can I feed my family?
- Can I house my family?

Will side with the status quo. The question now is different to that put forward in 2014. If Scotland wanted to be independent and outside of the EU the outcome would probably look more favourable, but since the independence supporters and the SNP are using the Brexit vote as a lever to force another referendum so soon after 2014 they are forced into trying to remain in the EU at all costs. This puts them in the position outlined above. One which if the truth is told to the populace, the glaringly obvious choice is to remain in the Union - again.

Clearly the young vote is going to side with a political ideal, because they have nothing to lose. Historically this has always been the case, which is why liberal left politics has generally been the preserve of the young. As time goes by and these people acquire assets, dependants and a tax bill those views can, and often do, change towards the right. So those who are older at the moment who are against independence will be replaced by other older people who are against independence as time goes by until the economic argument makes sense as I've said before.