The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

elantan

ruggedtoast wrote: »

How can any red blooded Scot see those swaggering smug Tories thumbing their noses at them and smirking about their command of Scotland and not boil with anger?

How?

There was a lot of anger yesterday ... my Facebook and Twitter went into meltdown ... today though ? I'm almost wishing for the screaming and shouting to continue ... there's a deep anger and a fair bit of comparison of another female Tory leader and what she did to Scotland ... which whilst fun to watch play out does stand to become a dangerous distraction

.string.

Shakethedisease wrote: »

No it's the impression that headlines give that somehow Scotland would be vetoing Brexit in terms of the entire UK. They are designed to get hackles up even though untrue and as we can see from posts here, they do just that.

Fishing and agriculture. At the moment nominally devolved to Holyrood but in reality completely under EU control. In the event of a Brexit would of course still remain devolved to Holyrood therefore Brexit means handing fishing control to Holyrood ( since it nominally already is ). Bit of a nuisance really if Westminster wants to use fishing grounds etc as some sort of bargaining chip. Because they won't have control of them. Holyrood will under successive Scotland Acts.

Of course, the Great Repeal Act might include something about taking powers back to Westminster but there of course is just the one of the problems with Holyrood ever voting through a Repeal act that contains any such clauses. So there's just one problem and sticking point. It's not just a case of the SNP scrambling to keep up. Even though once again you seem to have conflated the SNP with the Scottish parliament as a whole. It's far more complex than you seem to have grasped at all.


http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/10/02/don-t-be-fooled-may-s-big-eu-announcement-is-just-admin

Thanks for taking the time on that post. Interesting.

I should just first remark that the concept of having a special deal for Scotland as a separate entity is not going to happen. That's not to say that Scotland's interests should not be looked after, but the negotiations are for the UK as a whole.

Is the Scottish Government its contact on Brexit by the SNP or is it an all-party contact group? I have assumed the former.

On the fishing - I would be astonished (and annoyed) if that were used as a bargaining chip with the EU. It should be a Hard Brexit item.

On the article you quoted from I was amused to see this:

-- quoting Davis' spoken word --- “To those who are trying to frighten British workers, saying ‘when we leave, employment rights will be eroded’, I say firmly and unequivocally ‘no they won’t’,” he said.

Comment by the author --- That promise isn't worth the paper it’s printed on.

Apart from the logic slip, there's a bit of bias showing there.

Apart from that, the article is over-complicating things, imagining things that can go wrong, and taking for granted that they will, but by the time that Bill is done, they will be sorted. IF there are parts of the eventual agreement which require EU regulation presumably that will remain the case. Presumably the EU has all these rules and regulation things (regarding trade) in a pretty BIG file and that's enough. EU laws regarding behavioural aspects would not need EU approval (that's part of the Brexit "control" mandate from the referendum).

As to whether the Scottish Government, in its infinite wisdom, wants to pass on laws about beach cleanliness or cucumber curviness, that would be up to them.

Personally I'd like to see more about the format of that bill before concluding my opinion; so far I only see procedural aspects to be worked through, rather than inevitable conflict.

I agree it's just an Admin thing.

CLAPTON

ruggedtoast wrote: »

What true Celt can suffer the sanctimonious poking of Theresa May's privileged posh finger and her sanctimonious dismissal of their rights and not boil with desire for freedom?

Corbyn, born with a silver spoon in his mouth, in a large Manor House and attended a grammar school.
He surrounds himself with posh people who sent their children to private school like the racist Abbott and the hypocrite Chakribrati.
Both he and May are in the wrong parties although May has at least had a proper job unlike the IRA loving Corbyn.
Just because the Scots have reject labour, there is no reason for you to wish them harm (although as you wish everyone harm I guess they might feel left out.

ruggedtoast

CLAPTON wrote: »

Corbyn, born with a silver spoon in his mouth, in a large Manor House and attended a grammar school.
He surrounds himself with posh people who sent their children to private school like the racist Abbott and the hypocrite Chakribrati.
Both he and May are in the wrong parties although May has at least had a proper job unlike the IRA loving Corbyn.
Just because the Scots have reject labour, there is no reason for you to wish them harm (although as you wish everyone harm I guess they might feel left out.

I see, thanks for clearing that up. :rotfl:

Out of interest what party should May be in? One you approve of, I am thinking Monster Raving Loony...

CLAPTON

ruggedtoast wrote: »

I see, thanks for clearing that up. :rotfl:

Out of interest what party should May be in? One you approve of, I am thinking Monster Raving Loony...

given Corbyn is a rich posh boy that loves being round racist bigots and homophobic fanatics and private school paying parents, and May is a simple girl of the people, they could just swap parties

Shakethedisease

.string. wrote: »

Thanks for taking the time on that post. Interesting.

I should just first remark that the concept of having a special deal for Scotland as a separate entity is not going to happen. That's not to say that Scotland's interests should not be looked after, but the negotiations are for the UK as a whole.

A 'special deal' is unique to Scottish politics in a Brexit context. This is because all Scottish parties ( apart from the Tories, though Davidson was a firm remainer during the campaign ).. just after the Leave vote won voted in Holyrood to allow the Scottish Government to seek any sort of special deal available that would keep Scotland both in the EU and in the UK.

Any special deal is primarily a Scottish Labour and Lib Dem construct. They are still both adamant that Sturgeon explores all possible avenues that allow Scotland to stay both in the EU and the UK. Though May put the kibosh on that yesterday for them. If you take anything away from this post at all, then please remember this since you are not familiar with day to day Holyrood politics and instead rely on media headlines which may not be the most accurate. Choosing instead to frame the SNP in this instead of the smaller Holyrood parties.

Is the Scottish Government its contact on Brexit by the SNP or is it an all-party contact group? I have assumed the former.

There's been an EU/Brexit expert group assembled as Sturgeon indicated just after the Brexit vote. They've met a few times now. Most are academics, EU experts and economists. The Scottish Govt voted this group in to give advice. See below for members.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36656989

On the fishing - I would be astonished (and annoyed) if that were used as a bargaining chip with the EU. It should be a Hard Brexit item.

On the article you quoted from I was amused to see this:

-- quoting Davis' spoken word --- “To those who are trying to frighten British workers, saying ‘when we leave, employment rights will be eroded’, I say firmly and unequivocally ‘no they won’t’,” he said.

Comment by the author --- That promise isn't worth the paper it’s printed on.

Apart from the logic slip, there's a bit of bias showing there.

Apart from that, the article is over-complicating things, imagining things that can go wrong, and taking for granted that they will, but by the time that Bill is done, they will be sorted. IF there are parts of the eventual agreement which require EU regulation presumably that will remain the case. Presumably the EU has all these rules and regulation things (regarding trade) in a pretty BIG file and that's enough. EU laws regarding behavioural aspects would not need EU approval (that's part of the Brexit "control" mandate from the referendum).

As to whether the Scottish Government, in its infinite wisdom, wants to pass on laws about beach cleanliness or cucumber curviness, that would be up to them.

Personally I'd like to see more about the format of that bill before concluding my opinion; so far I only see procedural aspects to be worked through, rather than inevitable conflict.

I agree it's just an Admin thing.

The poster Conrad in many other threads has repeatedly used fishing grounds as an indicator of some sort of bargaining chip for Westminster in terms of getting a better deal. As have others all over the internet. But they'll revert to Holyrood control, not Westminster's since they're already devolved.

Oh and thank YOU for actually engaging with debating a real political issue rather than beefburgers, prawns or simply accusing a fellow poster of untruths. But these constitutional issues ARE going to happen at some point.

3 October 2016

UK and Scotland on course for great 'constitutional bust-up'

The UK government's plans for a Brexit "Great Repeal Bill" are likely to end in a "constitutional bust-up", a legal expert has predicted.
Prof Jo Shaw, the Salvesen Chair of European Institutions at Edinburgh University Law School, said some form of confrontation between the UK and Scottish governments over the proposal was inevitable...

..Prof Shaw said she was sure politicians on both sides of the border were "perfectly aware" the bill would be "very, very confrontational".
"It isn't a particularly consent-based approach, it isn't a particularly collaborative approach," she told the BBC.
"We've seen statements about collaboration that Mrs May made right at the beginning of her premiership have largely gone away now. She's said things like, 'well, Scotland can have its say but ultimately we drive the process here in London.'"
But she said the fact that the UK Parliament could "railroad" legislation through demonstrated the "limits of devolution".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-37540552

The same in Northern Ireland. Calling those that point them out delusional doesn't make them go away nor any less of a fact going forward. As I've pointed out and been completely ignored for doing so for about the last three pages of this thread. C'est la vie. :cool:

Also ignored is the fact that most Scots/pro indy types think that if there's to be another Scottish referendum then it's most likely to take place late 2018/early 2019. The legislation is being written up now. So all the carping on these pages about Sturgeon going quiet or being too scared to call one. I cannot be bothered repeatedly countering on here page after page. If the EU means anything to the SNP and others in Scotland, they will go for broke and call one before the UK finally leaves. Added Tories laying down the law to Scots and telling them what's what is also a plus point the SNP couldn't wish for in their wildest dreams. And I truly mean that.

Theresa May has given one nod to George Osborne, the chancellor she vanquished upon moving into Downing Street, this week.
Osborne kickstarted support for Scottish independence when he bowled into Edinburgh at the start of 2014 and told Scots they would not be sharing sterling.
The effect, as with Mrs May’s unequivocal statement in her speech on Sunday that Scotland would have neither a veto nor an opt out when it comes to Brexit, was to enthuse nationalists and infuriate those thinking of supporting separation. From that point on support for a Yes vote in that year’s independence referendum started ticking up.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/10/snp-think-theresa-may-just-gave-their-independence-plans-big-boost

If anyone's scared it's Ruth Davidson that May will make the mistake of trying and block one ( again as I and others here have apparently delusionally pointed out already many times ). She knows exactly what will happen. A gift that keeps on giving to any future Yes campaign.

10 hours ago

Davidson: There should not be blanket refusal to indyref2

Ruth Davidson has warned the UK Government not to issue a "blanket refusal" to a second independence referendum if the First Minister calls for one.
Davidson believes such an approach could lead to support for independence growing.

http://stv.tv/news/politics/1368857-davidson-there-should-not-be-a-blanket-refusal-to-indyref2/

Interesting times ahead most definitely.

ruggedtoast

The SNP will need to go guerrilla with this. Westminster will try and shut down access to polling stations so they will need to use public spaces like branches of Asda, Lidl, and Chicken Cottage.

I guess there won't be any of the official election people from the councils doing the counting either so it will all have to be done by SNP supporters, but to be honest at this point I'd go with anything.

Anything to wipe the smirks from these hateful Tories.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

It's just law Tricky. We all have to abide by it, even Westminster. There have been plenty of answers put forward and potential ways for an independent Scotland to go economically. But you'll never read them since they don't appear in mainstream areas of the media so there's very little point in presenting any of them to you.

I began to read some of the economic options put forward by WoS, and yourself, and the authors continually suggest that GERS is wrong for differing reasons per author. I recall commenting on one in particular you posted, a very dreary PDF, which lost credibility after some wild assertions and yet you appeared to hold it up as a paragon of economic truth. At the same time joining the author in berating the figures that the Scottish government had a hand in producing.

The Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland (GERS) web area provides information on the annually published GERS report. GERS is compiled by statisticians and economists in the Office of the Chief Economic Adviser of the Scottish Government. The Scottish Government's Chief Statistician takes responsibility for this publication.

So those whose job it is (at the pleasure of the Scottish government no less) are wrong and a one man band is able to create a more accurate set of accounts?

Are you genuinely suggesting the above?

If so, do you not question why the Scottish government employs an office of people who can be so grossly incorrect as to suggest the Scottish government is £billions in the red when in fact this gentleman from the Outer Hebrides can do it better on his own from the back of a fag packet? Why would the Scottish government allow themselves to be shown to be mismanaging Scottish revenue if that was not the case?

Lets get real.

Whilst we're getting real, where on this website (again from an official Scottish political institution) does it state that Holyrood has a stake in anything relating to the UK constitution?

http://www.parliament.scot/visitandlearn/Education/18642.aspx

If you're going to say that Sewel has an impact, it does not.

http://www.gov.scot/About/Government/Sewel/KeyFacts

2. Nothing in the Scotland Act prevents the UK Parliament from legislating on matters which are within devolved competence: section 28(7) makes that clear.

So as I said before, the economic case is still to be made and Holyrood is powerless in the face of Brexit.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

ruggedtoast wrote: »

Anything to wipe the smirks from these hateful Tories.

There are a surprising number of us "hateful Tories" that would consider supporting indy for Scotland over the EU issue.

Inflammatory language like that is not called for.

ruggedtoast

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

There are a surprising number of us "hateful Tories" that would consider supporting indy for Scotland over the EU issue.

Inflammatory language like that is not called for.

Nevertheless, the ones that are smirking will stop smirking pretty quickly if Scotland goes Indy.

I personally fouind May's language fairly inflammatory.