The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

The_Last_Username

Just to clarify, in a report today Theresa May said Scotland will have no veto over Brexit.
Also (and just wait for the squealing to start) that "there should not be a second referendum in Scotland".

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-scotland-idUKKCN1202OG

Shakethedisease

The_Last_Username wrote: »

Uh ........... why?
The whole of the UK voted (or had the opportunity to) and the majority voted to leave the UK.

According to The Scottish Parliament itself in the link below, and I quote:
and
http://www.parliament.scot/PublicInformationdocuments/SP_Holyrood_and_Westminster_English_Sept_2014.pdf

So now THAT has been established, here's a list (link below) of devolved & reserved matters.
Right at the bottom of reserved is "the Constituition.".
http://www.parliament.scot/visitandlearn/12506.aspx
Now since the UK as a whole voted to leave AND since Scotland does not legally (yet and according to the above) have the power to prevent the UK from leaving, why should Scotland's approval be needed any more than say, just for example, Wigan's or Carlisle's?

The time to object should have been BEFORE the referendum took place.
Enough notice was given.
Ergo tacit acknowledgement of possible outcomes were accepted BEFORE the referendum took place.

Lovely wandering there off on the wrong road completely. You've forgotten the Scotland Act and the Good friday agreement etc. Westminster can overrule as I've stated ( since there's little chance of Holyrood voting through any Brexit measures ).. but when they do over rule there will be friction.

Leglislative consent and the Sewel convention is what you're looking for.

It is a well established constitutional convention, known as the Sewel Convention, that the UK Government will not normally legislate on devolved matters except with the agreement of the devolved legislature (see paragraph 14 of the Memorandum of Understanding between the UK Government and devolved executives (October 2013)). This convention is now reflected in section 28(8) of the Scotland Act 1998, as inserted by section 2 of the Scotland Act 2016. Since its inception in 1998, the convention has evolved to require consent “not only where the UK Parliament seeks to legislate in devolved policy areas, but beyond that where a UK bill seeks to vary the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament or the executive competence of the Scottish Ministers.”

Westminster will of course have to over rule this convention.

Shakethedisease

mrginge wrote: »

Why do you care about this?
Your plan is to have voted to leave the UK before brexit is finalised.

Keep your hair on. It's a debating forum. And yes there will be a referendum before Brexit is finalised if the SNP and the Scottish Greens don't like the way the end result is looking for Scotland.

Mind you your original plan was to be having Indy ref2 before article 50 was invoked, so I guess it's par for the course that you keep booting this ref further and further down the line.

No. It wasn't.

Shakethedisease

The_Last_Username wrote: »

Just to clarify, in a report today Theresa May said Scotland will have no veto over Brexit.
Also (and just wait for the squealing to start) that "there should not be a second referendum in Scotland".

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-scotland-idUKKCN1202OG

No one has ever said Scotland has a veto over Brexit. Those were headline inventions. But it will mean Westminster undermining both Holyrood and Stormont to do so which won't go down particularly well in either parliament ( understatement ). And yes Theresa May said the question isn't could there be another referendum, but should there be. She thinks there shouldn't of course.

But that doesn't mean there won't be one, or could be one. She was careful not to say either of those.

The_Last_Username

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Lovely wandering there off on the wrong road completely. You've forgotten the Scotland Act and the Good friday agreement etc. Westminster can overrule as I've stated ( since there's little chance of Holyrood voting through any Brexit measures ).. but when they do over rule there will be friction.

Leglislative consent and the Sewel convention is what you're looking for.



Westminster will of course have to over rule this convention.

Sorry but it seems YOU are the one "wandering off on the wrong road".
As is very clearly stated, constitutional issues are NOT devolved.
That is very clear.
Hence there is no debate regarding this.
Hence Theresa May is quite correct (as you would expect); Scotland cannot veto Brexit.
There is therefore no need for Scotland to undertake some imagined vote.
As I say above, the time for objection is long gone.

Shakethedisease

The_Last_Username wrote: »

Sorry but it seems YOU are the one "wandering off on the wrong road".
As is very clearly stated, constitutional issues are NOT devolved.
That is very clear.
Hence there is no debate regarding this.
Hence Theresa May is quite correct (as you would expect); Scotland cannot veto Brexit.
There is therefore no need for Scotland to undertake some imagined vote.

No one said they would veto Brexit. It's the Sewel convention in the Scotland Act and the Good Friday agreements that are the problem. Because without those being over ruled Brexit law cannot be written into Scottish/NI legislation. Neither parliament is going to do so willingly. No one has any problem whatsoever with the English and Welsh leaving. But they do when it comes to voting Brexit law through in their own devolved parliaments, and are unlikely to do so.

You've gotten all of this round the wrong way. It won't be Scotland or NI vetoing Brexit. It will be Westminster having to bulldoze the leglislation through for both Scotland and NI neither of whom want any part of it. That is where the trouble lies and you're kidding yourself if you think there won't be any.

Thrugelmir

Shakethedisease wrote: »

That is where the trouble lies and you're kidding yourself if you think there won't be any.

If you were sitting in Brussels you then want to distance yourself as far away as possible from Scotland. Imagine having to deal with these people in future entry negotiations. :whistle:

Shakethedisease

Thrugelmir wrote: »

If you were sitting in Brussels you then want to distance yourself as far away as possible from Scotland. Imagine having to deal with these people in future entry negotiations. :whistle:

Oh gosh yes. All those nasty little countries who vote to stay in the EU must be cut off immediately by those sitting in Brussels.. All in order to please those who jolly well want to get out of the EU asap and have just voted to do so.

Once again, your logic astounds me. 'These people'. The voters you mean of course ?

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

No one said they would veto Brexit. It's the Sewel convention in the Scotland Act and the Good Friday agreements that are the problem. Because without those being over ruled Brexit law cannot be written into Scottish/NI legislation. Neither parliament is going to do so willingly. No one has any problem whatsoever with the English and Welsh leaving. But they do when it comes to voting Brexit law through in their own devolved parliaments, and are unlikely to do so.

You've gotten all of this round the wrong way. It won't be Scotland or NI vetoing Brexit. It will be Westminster having to bulldoze the leglislation through for both Scotland and NI neither of whom want any part of it. That is where the trouble lies and you're kidding yourself if you think there won't be any.

It won't happen that way.

Both regions (Scotland and N.Ireland) are represented in the UK in the same way England and Wales are, via Westminster.

There won't be a need to vote it through the devolved parliaments since it's not an issue that concerns the devolved parliaments. They are after all glorified regional councils and hold no sovereign power whatsoever. These ideas that it's against Sewel or Good Friday are just ideas thrown up by the same people who are against Brexit, for Scottish independence, or another circumstance which precludes them from seeing the reality of the situation.

There is only one way in which Brexit may not happen for all regions of the UK, and that's if it does turn out that it requires a vote in Westminster to repeal the European Communities act. No region of the UK has a dog in this fight, only the UK as a whole and that means Westminster parliamentatrians and peers.

There is no act in the land that Westminster is unable to enact or repeal. Court or no court, devolved government (council) or not. Westminster could, should the MP's wish to do so, abolish the devolution experiment entirely, they could stop Barnett, they could kick Scotland out of the UK. They can do whatever they wish to/with/about Scotland and Holyrood will not stand in the way of that. Holyrood exists at Westminsters pleasure. It's a hard truth, but one that you need to accept rather than chasing all of these shadows.

It wasn't long ago (May 2015?) that MSP's were fighting for legislation to change the requirements to dissolve Holyrood and repeal the Scotland Act 1998 from needing a simple majority, to a 'super majority' of two thirds of Westminster parliament. Obviously Westminster said no and the rules remain with the repealing of the Scotland act 1998 only requiring a majority.

The_Last_Username

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

It won't happen that way.

Both regions (Scotland and N.Ireland) are represented in the UK in the same way England and Wales are, via Westminster.

There won't be a need to vote it through the devolved parliaments since it's not an issue that concerns the devolved parliaments. They are after all glorified regional councils and hold no sovereign power whatsoever. These ideas that it's against Sewel or Good Friday are just ideas thrown up by the same people who are against Brexit, for Scottish independence, or another circumstance which precludes them from seeing the reality of the situation.

There is only one way in which Brexit may not happen for all regions of the UK, and that's if it does turn out that it requires a vote in Westminster to repeal the European Communities act. No region of the UK has a dog in this fight, only the UK as a whole and that means Westminster parliamentatrians and peers.

There is no act in the land that Westminster is unable to enact or repeal. Court or no court, devolved government (council) or not. Westminster could, should the MP's wish to do so, abolish the devolution experiment entirely, they could stop Barnett, they could kick Scotland out of the UK. They can do whatever they wish to/with/about Scotland and Holyrood will not stand in the way of that. Holyrood exists at Westminsters pleasure. It's a hard truth, but one that you need to accept rather than chasing all of these shadows.

It wasn't long ago (May 2015?) that MSP's were fighting for legislation to change the requirements to dissolve Holyrood and repeal the Scotland Act 1998 from needing a simple majority, to a 'super majority' of two thirds of Westminster parliament. Obviously Westminster said no and the rules remain with the repealing of the Scotland act 1998 only requiring a majority.

Quite so.

Clinging on to desperate hopes that somehow the Sewell convention - or indeed anything else - will somehow prevent Scotland from being taken out of the EU as part of the UK are just that; desperate hopes.
Nothing more.

Shakethedisease: "It will be Westminster having to bulldoze the leglislation through for both Scotland and NI neither of whom want any part of it."

Not so.
AGAIN - constitution is not a devolved issue for Scotland, no matter how you choose to read it; therefore Westminster "has to bulldoze" nothing.
Westminster holds absolute power, whether you like it or not.

Shakethedisease: "That is where the trouble lies and you're kidding yourself if you think there won't be any."

Then read the very first line in section 2 from the linked "The Sewell Act: Key Facts" fom Scot.Gov:

Nothing in the Scotland Act prevents the UK Parliament from legislating on matters which are within devolved competence: section 28(7) makes that clear.

http://www.gov.scot/About/Government/Sewel/KeyFacts

Is THAT clear enough for you?
It is certainly clear enough to me just who is kidding themselves.
Hint *it ain't me*.