The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

TrickyTree83

beecher2 wrote: »

Scotland's civic nationalism couldn't be more different from that of UKIP.

Just because there is no argument that will convince you that independence is the right thing for Scotland, doesn't mean that there is no case for it. It just means you don't agree with it.

So far the case according to you is that you don't want to be thought of as a scrounger and you want control over these areas of government:

- benefits and social security
- immigration
- defence (EU?)
- foreign policy (EU?)
- employment (EU?)
- broadcasting
- trade and industry (EU?)
- nuclear energy, oil, coal, gas and electricity (EU?)
- consumer rights (EU?)
- data protection (EU?)
- the Constitution

All I'm asking you is, what is it in these areas of government that you cannot do that makes you want independence and is that worth the economic cost?

From what I can see the majority of these reserved powers that you'll get back from leaving the UK will be interfered with by the EU that you'll join. So where's the independence?

Of the devolved powers:

- agriculture, forestry and fisheries (EU?)
- education and training
- environment (EU?)
- health and social services
- housing
- law and order (EU?)
- local government
- sport and the arts
- tourism and economic development
- many aspects of transport

From this it looks like leaving the EU will actually give Scotland more power than it currently has. Whereas leaving the UK and joining the EU would be pretty much the same as being in the UK under the EU.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

It's rather the other way about ( Labour using the SNP and other parties as a route back to power ). It's a radical suggestion, that seems to be causing very mixed feelings from what I can see on Labourlist and the other areas the article has been posted.

But at least someone has made it, with a bit of pragmatism and reality. If the EU situation is resolved ( unlikely ) and Scotland remains within the UK at the next election. I should think the SNP would be wholeheartedly behind such a plan. After all they were the one's suggesting it in 2015 to Miliband.

Comparing eligible voters to actual votes in order to garner questionable statistics is a fools paradise in politics. Only those that actually do vote count.

It's not a fools paradise to compare votes that energise the public to get out and vote in greater numbers being a better indication of public sentiment than lower turnouts.

The opposite is a fools paradise as you put it.

beecher2

Your points have already been answered Tricky so re-read the thread.

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

From this it looks like leaving the EU will actually give Scotland more power than it currently has. Whereas leaving the UK and joining the EU would be pretty much the same as being in the UK under the EU.

Haha, you should work for Scottish Labour with that kind of logic.

TrickyTree83

beecher2 wrote: »

Your points have already been answered Tricky so re-read the thread.



Haha, you should work for Scottish Labour with that kind of logic.

Do you not have it boiled down into a few easily typed sentences after your extensive investigation into the pro's and con's of the choices potentially on offer?

Or could it be because that there is no argument for independence that holds any water and it's just "how I feel"? If you truly believe it there must be some sensible rationale behind it. I can't begin to believe that masses of the Scottish electorate don't have any sensible reasons for wanting independence at the expense of their economy.

beecher2

I've told you countless times I want Scotland to be a normal country which makes its own decisions. I don't know how I can be any clearer.

TrickyTree83

beecher2 wrote: »

I've told you countless times I want Scotland to be a normal country which makes its own decisions. I don't know how I can be any clearer.

So just flat out - Scottish nationalist. For no particular reason other than Scotland should be independent and be damned to the consequences.

So if you want Scotland to make its own decisions, does that also mean you don't want to join the EU?

beecher2

I want to live in an independent country which is a member of the EU. You don't agree but that doesn't mean I have no valid reasons. I believe we will be successful, you do not. I think rUK will struggle outwith the EU., you don't agree but please could we stop the repetitive posts? We've been having this debate for years, most people know their position and none of your points are new ones

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

So just flat out - Scottish nationalist. For no particular reason other than Scotland should be independent and be damned to the consequences.

So if you want Scotland to make its own decisions, does that also mean you don't want to join the EU?

I think you're being overly simplistic. Since 2011 Scots have been weighing up the pros and cons of independence form all angles and reasoning, and the SNP come to that since 2007.

You can't just spit out the word 'Scottish Nationalist' like an insult and dismiss all reasoning on that basis. Many have come to their conclusions over the last five years based on many things regardless of partly political affiliations.

With Brexit the goalposts moved too.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

I think you're being overly simplistic. Since 2011 Scots have been weighing up the pros and cons of independence form all angles and reasoning, and the SNP come to that since 2007.

You can't just spit out the word 'Scottish Nationalist' like an insult and dismiss all reasoning on that basis. Many have come to their conclusions over the last five years based on many things regardless of partly political affiliations.

With Brexit the goalposts moved too.

Well there's been no other reasoning forthcoming on here other than "there's lots of SNP and other nationalist voters now".

Even if you take that as read, like I said earlier, the previous Scottish parliament elections was only 55% of the electorate. The Conservatives (which you would assume are staunch unionist?) accounted for 22% of that 55%.

SNP Scottish National Party 46.5
LAB Scottish Labour 22.6
CON Scottish Conservatives 22.0
LD Scottish Lib Dems 7.8
GRN Scottish Green Party 0.6
OTH OTHERS 0.5

You still have to hope that those who didn't vote share your view. It's hardly indicative of a prevailing sentiment amongst the voters no matter what the positions of the politicians are. The only group of voters you can realistically count on to vote for independence from that group would be the SNP supporters since that is their stated aim.

All this about Slabs, Greens and Lib Dems supporting your position would only come from the soundbites of politicians from these parties.

If the politicians themselves are so terrible that you don't vote for them in significant numbers what makes you think those people who voted for them would share the politicians view? Wouldn't a more reasonable assumption be that the voters for these parties don't share a nationalist view, otherwise they would have voted for the SNP if the SNP are so great?

Why is there not near 80% or 90% (even on a 55% turnout) support for the SNP if they represent the views of the Scottish electorate?

Kezia could support independence, but her voters might not. The same for the other parties who are represented across the entire UK. Independence is not their raison d'etre like the SNP, so you have to question this base of support you talk about from other parties whose leaders or members may well be talking about support for independence.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Well there's been no other reasoning forthcoming on here other than "there's lots of SNP and other nationalist voters now".

Even if you take that as read, like I said earlier, the previous Scottish parliament elections was only 55% of the electorate. The Conservatives (which you would assume are staunch unionist?) accounted for 22% of that 55%.

SNP Scottish National Party 46.5
LAB Scottish Labour 22.6
CON Scottish Conservatives 22.0
LD Scottish Lib Dems 7.8
GRN Scottish Green Party 0.6
OTH OTHERS 0.5

You still have to hope that those who didn't vote share your view. It's hardly indicative of a prevailing sentiment amongst the voters no matter what the positions of the politicians are. The only group of voters you can realistically count on to vote for independence from that group would be the SNP supporters since that is their stated aim.

All this about Slabs, Greens and Lib Dems supporting your position would only come from the soundbites of politicians from these parties.

If the politicians themselves are so terrible that you don't vote for them in significant numbers what makes you think those people who voted for them would share the politicians view? Wouldn't a more reasonable assumption be that the voters for these parties don't share a nationalist view, otherwise they would have voted for the SNP if the SNP are so great?

Why is there not near 80% or 90% (even on a 55% turnout) support for the SNP if they represent the views of the Scottish electorate?

You're mixing up party political voting with support for independence. They are two different things. The Brexit vote has a lot of previously hardline Labour and Conservative No voters re-evaluating their stances on independence ( with caveats of course ).. but they would still be Conservative or Labour voters in future Scottish elections.

Also, the likelyhood of long term Westminster Conservative governments will also have previous Labour No voters possibly rethinking things as we've already seen in Scotland. Attitudes are shifting very quickly and we now have high ranking Labour MSP's openly advocating possible full on UK federalism and/or support for a second referendum should it be put before Holyrood. Some also want the Scottish Labour party to split away from the main Labour party. These people however are no Scottish nationalists by any stretch of the imagination.

Where you're falling down on this is by putting the SNP in a box, and then assuming everyone else in your list would vote against independence. Brexit changed everything previous to it, and once you accept this to be the case, then you just might be able to see how the politics is working right now in Scotland.

Now there are huge considerations and challenges ahead, but they all hinge on what kind of Brexit the UK eventually looks like ending up with. If I can accept that support for independence will more than likely fall back to it's recent baseline in the event a Brexit would mean single market access/FOM. Then surely it's not difficult for you to accept that independence is more than likely to rise in the event that Scotland is taken out of the single market etc etc.