The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

TrickyTree83

beecher2 wrote: »

Goodness. I was answering directly a post where you said
"you'd have a greater voice in the UK government if you didn't consistently vote for a minority party, and then complain about having a minority voice in parliament." Of course I am not speaking for the whole of Scotland.

You should maybe try stopping telling us what we need to do, and try to understand why so many have rejected unionist parties. There is no unionist party which reflects my views.

Does that mean independence is the answer then?

Or does it just mean that Scottish politicians are of a poor calibre (barring the SNP of course)?

So what's the actual answer there, is it to improve the quality of the candidates or is it to vote for a party whose #1 aim is an independent Scotland at any cost, economic or otherwise.

Please ignore the obvious hyperbole that can be drawn from this, I'm not intending to brand the SNP as the new nazi's, but that's how the nazi's came to power. Rather than making change happen in the best way possible the people just voted for the least bad candidates out there regardless of their ultimate aims. It has a lot to do with the rise of communism in the past too. The lack of good candidates from other political parties shouldn't be an excuse to vote for a party with a damaging and divisive message.

beecher2

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Does that mean independence is the answer then?

Or does it just mean that Scottish politicians are of a poor calibre (barring the SNP of course)?

So what's the actual answer there, is it to improve the quality of the candidates or is it to vote for a party whose #1 aim is an independent Scotland at any cost, economic or otherwise.

I was explaining my reasons for voting for my MP. I personally want independence so would not vote for a unionist party. I want an independent Scotland and really think you should maybe accept that just because I hold a different view, doesn't mean I'm somehow unaware or stupid.

beecher2

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Please ignore the obvious hyperbole that can be drawn from this, I'm not intending to brand the SNP as the new nazi's, but that's how the nazi's came to power. Rather than making change happen in the best way possible the people just voted for the least bad candidates out there regardless of their ultimate aims. It has a lot to do with the rise of communism in the past too. The lack of good candidates from other political parties shouldn't be an excuse to vote for a party with a damaging and divisive message.

Utter nonsense. I did not vote for the 'least bad candidate', for the first time in my life I have an MP who is excellent and who works hard for my community. I do not understand how you could possibly make this mad leap from what I posted. I said I supported their manifesto!

The nazi/communist comments are beyond contempt.

You think the SNP are damaging and divisive. I think they are positive and forward looking.

TrickyTree83

beecher2 wrote: »

I was explaining my reasons for voting for my MP. I personally want independence so would not vote for a unionist party. I want an independent Scotland and really think you should maybe accept that just because I hold a different view, doesn't mean I'm somehow unaware or stupid.

But when trying to explore the reasons why Scottish nationalists want independence they claim they don't have sufficient powers to do what they need to do. Yet the reserved powers in the devolution agreement aren't really that overbearing.

The argument doesn't hold water.

If you were able to tell me that the Union steals all your money, or that the Union stops you from spending money as you wish to do on education or health, or that you could save gargantuan amounts of money by leaving the union and plough it into welfare perhaps I'd be able to agree. But in reality that's not the case is it. You're really not badly off at all. But the economic case for leaving the Union clearly shows, you would be worse off. So where's the benefit? What can't you do that you so desperately need to be able to do that warrants the economic hurt?

TrickyTree83

beecher2 wrote: »

Utter nonsense. I did not vote for the 'least bad candidate', for the first time in my life I have an MP who is excellent and who works hard for my community. I do not understand how you could possibly make this mad leap from what I posted. I said I supported their manifesto!

The nazi/communist comments are beyond contempt.

You think the SNP are damaging and divisive. I think they are positive and forward looking.

How are they beyond contempt?

If the political candidates of more moderate parties are un-electable then an extreme element is likely to be elected.

UKIP is a great example of that here in England.

If you're fundamentally anti-Union then the SNP is the party of choice. It shouldn't be chosen for any other reason as that's their #1 aim. They will never stop until they break away from the Union, whether that is good or bad for Scotland in reality.

beecher2

Tricky, I've already answered this further upthread. We're going in circles.

I want Scotland to be in charge of all the powers which are presently reserved to Westminster. It is your opinion that the powers 'aren't' really that overbearing' and I don't agree. I want to live in a normal independent country. I don't want Scottish tax payers' money to go to Westminster and then to be made to feel like a scrounger when it comes back up to Holyrood.

I would never describe myself as a nationalist.

TrickyTree83

beecher2 wrote: »

I would never describe myself as a nationalist.

And yet that is precisely what you are, in your viewpoint and in your political goals.

With regards to Barnett, Scotland does do better out of that than any other area of the UK. That's a fact.

When you take control of your own affairs, there's going to be a lot more things to pay for, and you'll need to find the money for that, currently you're protected from those costs somewhat by Barnett. There won't be a glut of money. There will be a share of UK debt, a deficit and a drop in living standards in order to deal with that.

A brighter future? It just looks like nationalist fervour, much like UKIP.

If there is a cast iron argument for independence that shows you'll be much better off outside of the Union, lets hear it.

Shakethedisease

beecher2 wrote: »

the usual suspects from Scottish Labour did not take that at all well. I love reading Duncan Hothersall's tweets, just to try to get an understanding of the mindset.

Did you read his article here
http://labourhame.com/labour-is-one-party-and-its-not-just-scotland-that-needs-to-remember-it/
The hatred of the SNP just pours out of them - I don't think they'll ever get over the rage of so many Scots leaving them.

Yes I follow Duncan. I remember during the referendum campaign groaning at all his happy dances about polls and crowing over spending Tory money to win Labour seats ( with the assumption that the SNP would crash and burn after a No vote ).

I don't think he and others have quite taken it in yet, what happened in the following GE and since. But he's a good read these days.

beecher2

Scotland's civic nationalism couldn't be more different from that of UKIP.

Just because there is no argument that will convince you that independence is the right thing for Scotland, doesn't mean that there is no case for it. It just means you don't agree with it.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

:rotfl:

If you're relying on Corbyn to get into coalition in Westminster you shouldn't.

You'd have a better outcome by putting up SNP candidates around the UK.

And you want to tell me that the eligible vote doesn't matter?

In the independence referendum you had an 84% turnout and your "consolidated" Scottish independence view was in the minority.

The SNP are governing on 46% of a 55% turnout. Even if as you say all the other parties and everyone who voted for them was in support of independence that's only a 55% majority. And somehow I don't think 100% of the 55% turnout believe independence is the right thing.

It's rather the other way about ( Labour using the SNP and other parties as a route back to power ). It's a radical suggestion, that seems to be causing very mixed feelings from what I can see on Labourlist and the other areas the article has been posted.

But at least someone has made it, with a bit of pragmatism and reality. If the EU situation is resolved ( unlikely ) and Scotland remains within the UK at the next election. I should think the SNP would be wholeheartedly behind such a plan. After all they were the one's suggesting it in 2015 to Miliband.

Comparing eligible voters to actual votes in order to garner questionable statistics is a fools paradise in politics. Only those that actually do vote count.