The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

ash28

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Well yes some EU countries are putting these border checks back in place, which can only be a good thing, however it goes against the Schengen agreement and they're only temporary solutions. So if the EU is hell bent on these ideals these countries will no doubt eventually be told to remove the border checks. The very idea of no borders internally and no checks, whilst a noble idea isn't practicable in reality as it will be exploited, sadly. I wish that were not the case.

Edit: On the Russian relative, what was your reaction to them saying they can pay for these things like queue jumping in healthcare and purchasing a passport or driving licence without actually filling in any forms or passing any tests? I was absolutely shocked. I thought, naively, that most governments would as the UK does lock these kind of things down but it appears government officials and police use them to subsidise their income!! Crazy stuff.

I have another anecdote as a testament to this culture, we needed to book train tickets but the train for the public was sold out. So we got in touch with a local politician our family knew and purchased a ticket through them and got on the train - at a discounted price!! It really is everywhere and quite shocking.

She's from Moscow and when you take your driving test you either go "prepared" with money, otherwise you will likely be failed, or get a friend to do it for you....

Want your child in a good school that says it's full then pay the principal and a place will be found.

Want better treatment in hospital, then slip the nurses a bit of cash.

I was quite shocked to be honest as I like to think bribery in public service in the UK doesn't exist - I could be wrong there though.

She says ordinary life runs on a series of favours, a bit like your train ticket anecdote, but where a favour or gift would be expected in return at some point.

Herzlos

Give the Tories a chance, we'll have a 2-tier paid for health service soon enough.

ash28

Herzlos wrote: »

Do you understand anything about the Scottish Independence debate? Like, any of it?

Almost no-one on either side has xenophobic tendencies towards the English. It's mostly due to political differences and the want to take their own governance in their own direction. They don't want decisions about Scottish citizens being made by Westminster politicians that have no interest beyond London and their Country Clubs.

I'm a big fan of the English (on the whole), but that doesn't mean I want your politicians trying to privatize my health service, or for Trident on us, for instance.

So, you are happy to secede from the UK and handover decisions about Sottish citizens to Brussels where you will have even less influence than you currently do within the UK and to think otherwise is a bit like living in la-la land. Scotland will be a minnow within the EU, with all the clout of Croatia.

The EU are law takers not law makers - they negotiate on our behalf at an international level with the various international bodies who decide on international standards/international law, negotiations in which the nation states that make up the EU have to implement the decisions reached by the EU into domestic law or regulation. I think this is one of the reasons our politicians (north and south of the border) are mediocre at best.

The EU is a political union that has all the institutions of a state and is pushing for ever closer political union. To think that Scotland would have more influence in Brussels than it currently does in the UK is a mistake, in my opinion, which doesn't count for much, granted.

I'm all for the EU as a trading bloc, including free movement of EU citizens but political and fiscal union is a step too far for me.

You need look no further than Greece at how far the EU is prepared to go "to save the euro at any cost", which at some point, Scotland, if it joins the EU may have to join. The IMF have just been blasted by their watchdog for collaborating with the EC and ECB in the destruction of Greece. Hopefully some prosecutions will come from this, Mario Draghi for one and hopefully Christine LaGarde will resign.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/07/28/imf-admits-disastrous-love-affair-with-euro-apologises-for-the-i/

and for the full report

http://www.ieo-imf.org/ieo/pages/CompletedEvaluation267.aspx

IMHO, most Scottish Nationalists don't actually want independence in the true sense of the word, they want separation from the UK or more accurately England at any cost. Which is their prerogative of course.

TrickyTree83

Herzlos wrote: »

Give the Tories a chance, we'll have a 2-tier paid for health service soon enough.

We already have a 2 tier health system. The NHS for all it's warts, and private healthcare for those who wish to pay for it.

The Conservatives have had plenty of time to privatise and dismantle the NHS and it hasn't happened yet. My sister works as a nurse, there's no privatisation of critical infrastructure within the NHS and as far as she's aware it's not happening either. They may outsource cleaning contracts but having been an NHS cleaner in the past myself I can understand why that is a sensible economic decision rather than as others - who go way over the top about it - see it as privatisation of the NHS and use it as a stick to beat the Conservatives with, despite the NHS being run independently. Some will point to the removal of bursaries, yet have no idea about the reality of the situation. The reason we cannot recruit enough nurses is due to the bursary pot being finite. By moving it to a Student Loan type system it can be expanded to include many more potential recruits. During my sisters tuition the amount of people who applied for nursing bursaries, got on the course, used the money, took the tuition and then dropped out all together or went into private nursing is a disgrace, and the blame for that does not lie at the feet of government but at the feet of the people themselves.

If you want to look for blame for the current situation regarding NHS finances you cannot ignore Labour and PFI either. That scandal put NHS trusts on their knees. The bloated national debt accrued under Labour put the nations finances on its knees. But it's always all the Conservatives fault. All of it. Really?

This is what is increasingly found with the left, there's never objective scrutiny. Just that which fits the narrow world view. And if you don't agree, you're a bigot, racist, unfeeling, poor-bashing, bad person.

Perhaps that's what is wrong with politics in Scotland, that you've lost objectivity and become obsessed with particular issues and bashing particular points of view. I'm more than happy to criticise governments, Conservative, Labour, Coalition, SNP. None of them are paragons of truth and virtue as some hold them up to be. But I dislike just as much the lack of objectivity, just as with some peoples views on here regarding the lack of internal borders in Schengen. It's a dangerous trait more akin to blind faith in a religion than any pragmatic analysis of reality and consequence.

.string.

Herzlos wrote: »

Do you understand anything about the Scottish Independence debate? Like, any of it?

Almost no-one on either side has xenophobic tendencies towards the English. It's mostly due to political differences and the want to take their own governance in their own direction. They don't want decisions about Scottish citizens being made by Westminster politicians that have no interest beyond London and their Country Clubs.

I'm a big fan of the English (on the whole), but that doesn't mean I want your politicians trying to privatize my health service, or for Trident on us, for instance.

"decisions about Scottish citizens being made by Westminster politicians that have no interest beyond London and their Country Clubs."

That is not true and thus a a clear lie and absolute evidence of xenophobic sentiment.

It is also an insult and taken as such.

and again:

"trying to privatize my health service"

is also a lie.

Then there is the bit about forcing Trident "on us". Well that is political spin (mostly another form of lie). No doubt you would be happy enough to have Trident re-sited in England (as I would actually) yet still benefit for having your safety assured by the much larger military capability that the UK provides when we act together.

ash28

Herzlos wrote: »

Give the Tories a chance, we'll have a 2-tier paid for health service soon enough.

Wait until the TTIP negotiations are concluded (if they ever are) and see what happens when the US gets "market access" the EU and of course the EU gets "market access" to the US.

Market access could mean the abolition of public services provided by the state which theoretically could include the NHS. But that's only part of TTIP.

https://fullfact.org/europe/does-ttip-mean-privatisation-nhs/

It's worth reading the whole article but it does only concentrate on the NHS.

I personally hope TTIP comes to nothing, not only are there concerns in the EU member states about it and its implications but there also concerns in the US.

Herzlos

.string. wrote: »

"decisions about Scottish citizens being made by Westminster politicians that have no interest beyond London and their Country Clubs."

That is not true and thus a a clear lie and absolute evidence of xenophobic sentiment.

Is that why Scotland seems to vote entirely differently yet is still ignored?

Can you name one single thing the Tories have done that benefits someone outside of London?

"trying to privatize my health service"

is also a lie.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-hunt-privatise-nhs-tories-privatising-private-insurance-market-replacement-direct-democracy-a6865306.html

Then there is the bit about forcing Trident "on us". Well that is political spin (mostly another form of lie). No doubt you would be happy enough to have Trident re-sited in England (as I would actually) yet still benefit for having your safety assured by the much larger military capability that the UK provides when we act together.

I'd rather we got rid of it entirely; it protects us from nothing, provides no actual benefit, yet costs us a huge amount of cash and risk. If you feel safer with it, you house it.

Herzlos

ash28 wrote: »

Wait until the TTIP negotiations are concluded (if they ever are) and see what happens when the US gets "market access" the EU and of course the EU gets "market access" to the US.

Market access could mean the abolition of public services provided by the state which theoretically could include the NHS. But that's only part of TTIP.

https://fullfact.org/europe/does-ttip-mean-privatisation-nhs/

It's worth reading the whole article but it does only concentrate on the NHS.

I personally hope TTIP comes to nothing, not only are there concerns in the EU member states about it and its implications but there also concerns in the US.

I can see them trying to introduce an NHS plus - where you get priority for a small fee.

But with the same they seem to be systematically destroying it (restrictions on migrants salaries, the new contracts) and outsource as much of it as possible, I'm still not sure if there will be any worthwhile NHS in a few years.

Herzlos

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

We already have a 2 tier health system. The NHS for all it's warts, and private healthcare for those who wish to pay for it.

Sorry, I was referring to a 2 tier NHS. So 3 tiers in total: Free, NHS+, Private.

The Conservatives have had plenty of time to privatise and dismantle the NHS and it hasn't happened yet. My sister works as a nurse, there's no privatisation of critical infrastructure within the NHS and as far as she's aware it's not happening either. They may outsource cleaning contracts but having been an NHS cleaner in the past myself I can understand why that is a sensible economic decision rather than as others - who go way over the top about it - see it as privatisation of the NHS and use it as a stick to beat the Conservatives with, despite the NHS being run independently. Some will point to the removal of bursaries, yet have no idea about the reality of the situation. The reason we cannot recruit enough nurses is due to the bursary pot being finite. By moving it to a Student Loan type system it can be expanded to include many more potential recruits. During my sisters tuition the amount of people who applied for nursing bursaries, got on the course, used the money, took the tuition and then dropped out all together or went into private nursing is a disgrace, and the blame for that does not lie at the feet of government but at the feet of the people themselves.

I'm sure there are a few hospital units that are privately run, and their reputation is terrible. I don't have any reference offhand.

If you want to look for blame for the current situation regarding NHS finances you cannot ignore Labour and PFI either. That scandal put NHS trusts on their knees. The bloated national debt accrued under Labour put the nations finances on its knees. But it's always all the Conservatives fault. All of it. Really?

No, the PFI scam was one of the worst things done to the NHS/School system in history. But I don't think that it was done to kill off the NHS, I think it was done to get votes on the cheap in the short term. I think it's still criminally irresponsible, and I can only assume that the decision makers got huge backhanders (or are involved in the investment companies).

Just because Labour shafted the NHS doesn't mean that the Tories are a good thing.

This is what is increasingly found with the left, there's never objective scrutiny. Just that which fits the narrow world view. And if you don't agree, you're a bigot, racist, unfeeling, poor-bashing, bad person.

Perhaps that's what is wrong with politics in Scotland, that you've lost objectivity and become obsessed with particular issues and bashing particular points of view. I'm more than happy to criticise governments, Conservative, Labour, Coalition, SNP. None of them are paragons of truth and virtue as some hold them up to be. But I dislike just as much the lack of objectivity, just as with some peoples views on here regarding the lack of internal borders in Schengen. It's a dangerous trait more akin to blind faith in a religion than any pragmatic analysis of reality and consequence.

I see the same lack of objectivity on both sides, and I'm happy to criticize any politians and governments that do something worth of criticism. For instance, I'm pretty sure the SNP will implode after independence, but that doesn't mean that for now they aren't our best option since Labour seem to have no idea what's going on.

To be fair, I think anyone who wants to be a politician should be banned from doing so, and the system should be like an extended jury duty from a pool of university graduates (on the assumption that they'll have some understanding of reports). Or go full swing the other way and have the Windsors make all of the decisions :rotfl:

TrickyTree83

Herzlos wrote: »

Is that why Scotland seems to vote entirely differently yet is still ignored?

If you choose to vote for a party that can never be a majority in Westminster, whose fault is that? Not the English, Welsh or Northern Irish. In the Scottish government it's different, but in a UK general election if you vote for the SNP how can you ever expect to not be in opposition? If Labour wasn't an option or the Tories, you'd have been better off voting Lib Dem, but you don't.

Herzlos wrote: »

Can you name one single thing the Tories have done that benefits someone outside of London?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-hunt-privatise-nhs-tories-privatising-private-insurance-market-replacement-direct-democracy-a6865306.html

1. Increasing the lower threshold of income tax.

The guy wrote a book, it doesn't make it government policy. There's a lot more people in a government than just Jeremy Hunt.

Remember objectivity, instead of rabid leftism.

Herzlos wrote: »

I'd rather we got rid of it entirely; it protects us from nothing, provides no actual benefit, yet costs us a huge amount of cash and risk. If you feel safer with it, you house it.

I heard someone from the SNP say if there was a nuclear attack that Faslane would be a target and it would wipe out most of Scotland, therefore it's not wanted.

Faslane, where there are no active subs wouldn't be a major target. London would be. Command and control structures would be. Infrastructure would be.

I happen to live in the town where the National Grid control centre is, they've got nuclear bunkers because it's an infrastructure target. If an enemy wants to knock out our electrical grid, I'm dead. Am I making a massive amount of noise about that? No. Why? Because we have a deterrent that makes people think twice about launching against us.

There are many more likely targets than Faslane. Having a deterrent means we're less likely to be targeted for fear of retribution. It's one of the reasons we've not had these weapons used since WW2.