The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

TrickyTree83

.string. wrote: »

In that speech Sturgeon was moaning about the lack of a plan from the UK Government should Leave win the day.

I wonder if she now care to publish her plan.

When only 15% of your trade is with the EU and 64% of your trade is with the UK, any deal between the UK and the EU that does not guarantee free trade will be a disaster for any economic plan the SNP can conjure up at [STRIKE]Hogwarts[/STRIKE] Holyrood.

There cannot be any economic plan for the situation the SNP are currently describing as demanding another independence referendum.

The independence idea was tested in 2014 and found wanting in arguably better circumstances, i.e. independent Scotland joins the EU and enjoys free trade with the UK. Along with higher oil prices! Now, it's just a lame duck idea and going along with it will be economic suicide.

AnotherJoe

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

The independence idea was tested in 2014 and found wanting in arguably better circumstances, i.e. independent Scotland joins the EU and enjoys free trade with the UK. Along with higher oil prices! Now, it's just a lame duck idea and going along with it will be economic suicide.

No doubt the 'Sexit' movement will conjure up their equivalent of the Brexit £350M health service promise.
Perhaps €350M to Scotland in subsidies from the EU to replace that lost from the UK and oil ?
Yep the €, that is mandatory for joining the EU now isn't it?

robin61

I just don't t get how the Scots could possibly fall for the SNP' s pitch.
If they leave the UK before Brexit. They will have:
No currency of their own
No EU membership
No Bank Of England
Low oil price
Massive deficit
No Barnett Formula
Cut themselves adrift from their biggest customer the UK
Their share of the National debt (should they expect a share of assets)

If they leave after Brexit then same deal applies.

Plus there is absolutely no guarantee when or even if they will be accepted by the EU. If they are accepted assuming the Spanish don' t veto their application they will have to take the Euro, Shengen and therefore there will probably need to be a hard border with the UK.

None of this seems like a very appealing proposition to me and the risks involved would seem to be far greater than the UK has undertaken with Brexit although I don't underestimate some of the challenges the UK has to meet. But the SNP are now saying that the economic risk is greater for Scotland if they remain in the UK which for me you would have to be barking mad to believe.

I do feel sorry for the Scots who voted No in 2014 if they have to go through all that again. It must be very destabilising for Scotland.

TrickyTree83

Shakethedisease wrote: »

What's your problem then ? You want England/Wales to leave the EU, but are also keen to see Scotland leaving the UK. Then at the same time are crapping on about how Scotland should be treated politically just the same as Yorkshire is.

You don't make any sort of sense.

Sturgeon will lay out the red lines today. Best to get these things out and in the open asap. I fail to see what there is to disagree with in any of them ( as a remain voter ). Seem quite sensible to me.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14639406.Sturgeon_sets_out_her_five_Brexit_demands_for_Scotland/

Will you then concede that Sturgeon favours 15% of Scottish trade over 64% of Scottish trade?

And if you do - can you see the idiocy?

Lets assume you rent and you couldn't afford the rent in a particular month, you were £100 short. You had offers from 2 friends, both of equal standing, one offered you 15% of £100 and the other offered you 64% of £100. You can only choose one to help you meet your rental payment.

Which would you choose?

Nicola Sturgeon, another friend of yours, wants you to choose the friend offering 15% because she dislikes the friend offering 64%. Do you listen to her?

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Yep.

By voting to remain in the UK in 2014 Scotland was asked about the UK's EU membership.

They were not lied to in 2014 by Better Together. Since although a referendum was announced as part of a Conservative manifesto there was no cast iron way to foretell the future and see that a Conservative majority would form a government and call the referendum on EU membership. A vote to leave the UK - at that time - meant that Scotland would indeed no longer be part of an EU member state. Where is the lie? There isn't one.

In the EU referendum there was no concept of England, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland. No concept. No. Concept. It was a UK wide vote, where the views of Scottish leavers and remainers, Norther Irish leavers and remainers, Welsh and English leavers and remainers were all considered equal. If THAT is not democratic - what is?

UK wide turnout was 72%.

Scottish turnout was 67%.

67% of the Scottish electorate is 2,679,513. Of this 1,661,191 (62%) voted to remain.

In the independence referendum 2014 Scottish turnout was 84.59% of an electorate of 4,283,392. So 3,619,915 people voted.

NO 2,001,926
YES 1,617,989

Remarkably similar voting numbers given the SNP's agendas in both votes, perhaps I'm being a cynic.

But coupled with this:



Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36571267



Source: http://www.snp.org/if_you_re_voting_with_independence_in_mind_this_thursday_vote_remain



Source: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jul/07/scottish-brexit-voters-pose-quandary-for-independence-campaign

Am I really being a cynic? Or are the SNP the manipulative filth I believe them to be?

Not a cynic no. Just a bit long winded and totally wrong. The demographics of the independence referendum were different. 16/17 years olds and EU nationals had the vote too. As they will again in the next one. EU nationals will boost the Yes vote up quite a bit I should imagine. There's about 130,000 of them. About 80,000 of them were expected to have voted in the last ref.

I rather think that it's yourself that's trying a bit of a fantasy numbers game here. You can't compare indy ref voters with the EU vote. They're not the same.

As for the filth comment. Wind it in mate, half of Scotland vote for them in elections. There's no need for insults on people's preferred voting options. This board would most likely have to close down if everyone did so. I understand that you don't like it, nor the way 49.7% of the Scottish electorate voted a month ago, but here we all are anyway. Scottish Greens are currently on the same page as the SNP reagarding the EU, as are more and more Scottish Labour representatives and voters. There is only so long that Labour voters in Scotland can be counted on to keep voting for a union which means Conservative govts and the loss of their EU citizenship into the bargain. I think they've just about reached the end of this particular tether now. There are certainly plenty of rumours flying about..

Rumor has it from a very good source Kezia is on the way out and Labour MSPs are looking for a way to independence

Scotland voted in 2014 to remain in a UK which was an EU member. This is no longer the case, and if Scotland IS looking like being pulled out, there will be another referendum called from Holyrood there's no two ways about it. Economics or no, ( who knows what UK's Brexit will look like ).. it will more than likely be a Yes vote.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Will you then concede that Sturgeon favours 15% of Scottish trade over 64% of Scottish trade?

And if you do - can you see the idiocy?

Lets assume you rent and you couldn't afford the rent in a particular month, you were £100 short. You had offers from 2 friends, both of equal standing, one offered you 15% of £100 and the other offered you 64% of £100. You can only choose one to help you meet your rental payment.

Which would you choose?

Nicola Sturgeon, another friend of yours, wants you to choose the friend offering 15% because she dislikes the friend offering 64%. Do you listen to her?

I'll wait and see what happens with NI likely setting a precedent for Scotland/Westminster to follow re borders and trade.

Theresa May today.

"But we've had a common travel area between the UK and the Republic of Ireland many years before either country was a member of the European Union."Nobody wants to return to the borders of the past. What we do want to do is to find a way through this that is going to work and deliver a practical solution for everybody - as part of the work that we are doing to ensure that we make a success of the United Kingdom leaving the European Union - and that we come out of this with a deal which is in the best interests of the whole of the United Kingdom."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-36885303


You're making and incredible amount of assumptions based on absolutely nothing. Article 50 hasn't even been invoked yet ( if it ever is ) and already you've got hard border controls set up between Scotland/England and NI. You have no idea what's going to happen. Strugeon, who represents Scotland in a global capacity ( she IS the First Minister of Scotland after all ).. has set out her stall. I have no idea and am happy to say so, that I don't know what's going to happen next, which is why I'm always careful to say IF Scotland gets taken out of the EU.

But at least she's set out her parameters. I have no idea how the PM is possibly going to keep Leavers, remainers, Scotland, NI, Gibraltar and Spain all happy. A Brexit so light we don't even notice the difference ?

zagubov

robin61 wrote: »

I just don't t get how the Scots could possibly fall for the SNP' s pitch. They haven't made a pitch yet
If they leave the UK before Brexit. they’ll choose the time to suit themselves
They will have:
No currency of their own They’re already planning for that
No EU membership They’ll be fully compliant with all EU statutes right up to the point of joining
No Bank Of England So George Osbourne wanted them to believe
Low oil price These things fluctuate
Massive deficit Time to adjust their fiscal policies
No Barnett Formula True, but that’ll quieten down al the endless moaning about it in the rest of the UK
Cut themselves adrift from their biggest customer the UK Don’t countries trade all the time- I thought that was what the Brexit argument was long on about al the time
Their share of the National debt (should they expect a share of assets) Both can be agreed on

If they leave after Brexit then same deal applies.Up to them and their timing I suppose
Plus there is absolutely no guarantee when or even if they will be accepted by the EU. You can worry about that for us; nobody else bevies that for a second If they are accepted assuming the Spanish don' t veto their application they will have to take the Euro, No need to worry- if they’ve no currency they’d be ineligible for the Euro Shengen Talk to Croatia about that and therefore there will probably need to be a hard border with the UK.

None of this seems like a very appealing proposition to me and the risks involved would seem to be far greater than the UK has undertaken with Brexit although I don't underestimate some of the challenges the UK has to meet. But the SNP are now saying that the economic risk is greater for Scotland if they remain in the UK which for me you would have to be barking mad to believe.

I do feel sorry for the Scots who voted No in 2014 if they have to go through all that again. It must be very destabilising for Scotland.

You should give up worrying about Scotland- you've got so many they're starting to cancel each other out and a lot of them are imaginary. Worrying about how we in the rest of the UK are going to cope with an unplanned Brexit’s the real issue.

CLAPTON

zagubov wrote: »

You should give up worrying about Scotland- you've got so many they're starting to cancel each other out and a lot of them are imaginary. Worrying about how we in the rest of the UK are going to cope with an unplanned Brexit’s the real issue.

still in denial then?
but of course you aren't actually planning to live there are you?

Leanne1812

Manipulative filth.

Crazed loon.

Feels like some kind of alternate universe to hear a democratically elected leader and party referred to like this.

It's time to calm down people, you do yourselves no favours with that kind of talk.

TrickyTree83

But it's OK to talk about the Conservative party like that?

Double standards.

How is Nicola and her party not manipulative filth for asking people who are pro-independence and anti-EU to vote against their conscience in an UK wide EU referendum in the sole hope to achieve their aim, it's not democratic in terms of the UK in any way.

She's not acting in the best interests of the UK, she's acting in her own best interests, she's not acting in the best interest of Scottish people, she's acting in her party's own interests. It's clear as day.

The SNP love to paint themselves as holier than thou when the truth is very different. She has a lack of respect for the PM of the UK and continues to drive a wedge between some people of Scotland and the rest of the UK. I stand by what I said.