The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

mrginge

Sounds to me like La Sturg's 'demands' are that nothing at all changes and **** everyone in the country (including the 40ish % of Scots who voted for change).

Unfortunatly such levels of complete inflexibility often lead to the perpetrator being bypassed from the decision making process entirely. Fortunately the govt seems to be taking the sensible approach and being nice and accommodating to this crazed loon, while at the same time quietly getting on with their own agenda.

mwpt

mrginge wrote: »

Sounds to me like La Sturg's 'demands' are that nothing at all changes and **** everyone in the country (including the 40ish % of Scots who voted for change).

Unfortunatly such levels of complete inflexibility often lead to the perpetrator being bypassed from the decision making process entirely. Fortunately the govt seems to be taking the sensible approach and being nice and accommodating to this crazed loon, while at the same time quietly getting on with their own agenda.

You don't seem to have a problem with **** 48% of the people in the UK as a whole though. Why are you opposed to democracy in Scotland?

TrickyTree83

mwpt wrote: »

So why not leave it to them to decide? Why are you so opposed to democracy in Scotland when you were so pro democracy in the UK? It is interesting that you think economics trumps democracy in their case but not in the UKs case.

Why do you always twist what I say?

I've never said they shouldn't get a vote, they had one, they voted and everyone thought that was the end of it, whether or not they will be allowed another vote is a different question and what will happen in either outcome is yet another. I've certainly tried to address the economic question. It's quite plainly economic suicide to break away from the UK for Scotland, even if you think the EU is the land of milk and honey, the reality is different.

If Scotland had voted to leave the UK in 2014 they would never have been asked the question on the UK's EU membership. By voting to stay in the UK they actually had a say in the matter, now they don't like it they're rowing back on the democratic process that was undertaken in 2014. That's democratic unacceptability. Not this nonsense Sturgeon spouts on an almost daily basis.

I believe as the UK we'll be able to improve the lot of all citizens by striking deals with major nations around the world, I also believe we should retain single market access. I've always wanted the best of both worlds. Sorry that my actual position doesn't fit into your narrative of generalising all leave voters.

mrginge

mwpt wrote: »

You don't seem to have a problem with **** 48% of the people in the UK as a whole though. Why are you opposed to democracy in Scotland?

What on earth is this drivel you keep harping on about

.string.

Foreign affairs are not a devolved matter and this was known at the time of the Scottish Referendum and approved by it.

robin61

.string. wrote: »

Foreign affairs are not a devolved matter and this was known at the time of the Scottish Referendum and approved by it.

Yep some powers have been devolved some have not. The decision on the UK's EU membership has not.

Scotland was asked in 2014 whether they wanted to be Scottish or British. They chose British so need to abide by the democratic decision.

The alternative is independence and their own Sovereign Nation.

TrickyTree83

robin61 wrote: »

Yep some powers have been devolved some have not. The decision on the UK's EU membership has not.

Yep.

By voting to remain in the UK in 2014 Scotland was asked about the UK's EU membership.

They were not lied to in 2014 by Better Together. Since although a referendum was announced as part of a Conservative manifesto there was no cast iron way to foretell the future and see that a Conservative majority would form a government and call the referendum on EU membership. A vote to leave the UK - at that time - meant that Scotland would indeed no longer be part of an EU member state. Where is the lie? There isn't one.

In the EU referendum there was no concept of England, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland. No concept. No. Concept. It was a UK wide vote, where the views of Scottish leavers and remainers, Norther Irish leavers and remainers, Welsh and English leavers and remainers were all considered equal. If THAT is not democratic - what is?

UK wide turnout was 72%.

Scottish turnout was 67%.

67% of the Scottish electorate is 2,679,513. Of this 1,661,191 (62%) voted to remain.

In the independence referendum 2014 Scottish turnout was 84.59% of an electorate of 4,283,392. So 3,619,915 people voted.

NO 2,001,926
YES 1,617,989

Remarkably similar voting numbers given the SNP's agendas in both votes, perhaps I'm being a cynic.

But coupled with this:

Ahead of the referendum on Thursday, Ms Sturgeon told the BBC's Sunday Politics Scotland programme she remained committed to Scottish independence.
But in a message to independence supporters she said: "If you're basing your decision, and as I say I'm not, but if you are basing your decision on what you think is best for the case for Scottish independence, then do not vote to leave - vote to remain."

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36571267

If you’re voting with independence in mind this Thursday, vote ‘Remain’

Source: http://www.snp.org/if_you_re_voting_with_independence_in_mind_this_thursday_vote_remain

The weekend before the EU referendum, Sturgeon directly addressed previous pro-independence voters such as Lazenby, urging them not to back Brexit because a second independence referendum would only be triggered if the majority of Scots voted to remain while the rest of the UK voted to leave.

Source: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jul/07/scottish-brexit-voters-pose-quandary-for-independence-campaign

Am I really being a cynic? Or are the SNP the manipulative filth I believe them to be?

mollycat

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Yep.

By voting to remain in the UK in 2014 Scotland was asked about the UK's EU membership.

They were not lied to in 2014 by Better Together. Since although a referendum was announced as part of a Conservative manifesto there was no cast iron way to foretell the future and see that a Conservative majority would form a government and call the referendum on EU membership. A vote to leave the UK - at that time - meant that Scotland would indeed no longer be part of an EU member state. Where is the lie? There isn't one.

In the EU referendum there was no concept of England, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland. No concept. No. Concept. It was a UK wide vote, where the views of Scottish leavers and remainers, Norther Irish leavers and remainers, Welsh and English leavers and remainers were all considered equal. If THAT is not democratic - what is?

UK wide turnout was 72%.

Scottish turnout was 67%.

67% of the Scottish electorate is 2,679,513. Of this 1,661,191 (62%) voted to remain.

In the independence referendum 2014 Scottish turnout was 84.59% of an electorate of 4,283,392. So 3,619,915 people voted.

NO 2,001,926
YES 1,617,989

Remarkably similar voting numbers given the SNP's agendas in both votes, perhaps I'm being a cynic.

But coupled with this:



Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36571267



Source: http://www.snp.org/if_you_re_voting_with_independence_in_mind_this_thursday_vote_remain



Source: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jul/07/scottish-brexit-voters-pose-quandary-for-independence-campaign

Am I really being a cynic? Or are the SNP the manipulative filth I believe them to be?

No. you are absolutely 100% correct.

And it's even worse if you live up here!

TT...thank you for your continued support of scottish unionists; it's appreciated

.string.

QUOTE from Shakethedisease - Referring to speech by Sturgeon:

"I am determined that we find or create the options that best preserve the five key interests that depend on our relationship with the EU.

"Our democratic interests - the need to make sure Scotland’s voice is heard and our wishes respected.
Scotland’s voice is already heard and respected - within the UK - but of course Sturgeon equates Scotland’s Voice with the SNP voice and interprets “heard and respected” as meaning that the SNP always gets what it wants regardless of others’ opinions. Anything short of the latter and she will claim that this “demand” is not met.


"Our economic interests - safeguarding free movement of labour, access to a single market of 500 million people and the funding that our farmers and universities depend on. “
Access to a "single market" can of course be met by access to the UK single market but she means the EU. The pre-negotiation position of the EU seems to be that access will be conditional on free movement which has currently been ruled out in UK pre-negotiation statements. Maybe a compromise can be worked out related to free movement if you have a job lined up – we will see, but it is unlikely to be achieved on the Brexit side of EU membership. So that's a pre-condition where the signs are that it is impossible. Funding of such things as farming and research becomes an internal matter under Brexit, it won’t vanish though.


"Our interests in social protection - ensuring the continued protection of workers’ and wider human rights. “
Motherhood statement. Originates from the normal “can’t trust Westminster” drivel. We have that sort of stuff in our own hands, ( I agree that much with the Brexiteers) but of course she parrots all that stuff about wicked Tories etc..
"Our interest in solidarity - the ability of independent nations to come together for the common good of all our citizens, to tackle crime and terrorism and deal with global challenges like climate change. “I agree that Brexit has already lost us the extent of solidarity we have enjoyed with Europeans and regret that but it will only come back if we are part of the EU and unfortunately that is simply not going to happen (to my regret). The other bit about law and order is just another motherhood statement – of course we all want that.

"And our interest in having influence - making sure that we don't just have to abide by the rules of the single market but also have a say in shaping them."
Impossible without being a member fof the single market.

Ms Sturgeon will promise to "explore every avenue and every option" for meeting the five tests.”

That I think is a direct lie in that I don’t believe for one moment that she will look at what the UK has to offer in any way but a narrow, nationalist, viewpoint.

Finish Quote

This is the sort of thing we have come to expect from the SNP, making demands that cannot be met. This follows their tactics during the discussions about the Devolution Settlement.

In short, I think that list of points is clumsy and not serious. If one is going to make such points you need to write them in a way that allows some wriggle room, especially at this stage, and she has made them too long and too inflexible. She even added more "musts" in her speech. All that shows she is not serious and is merely treating this limbo stage of Brexit as a nationalist game, with the intent of claiming it a failure when her day-dreams are not realised.

.string.

In that speech Sturgeon was moaning about the lack of a plan from the UK Government should Leave win the day.

I wonder if she now care to publish her plan.