The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

tatartan

Shakethedisease wrote: »

That speech was.... underwhelming. And probably a mistake. Watch as splits deepen and other parties form before 2021.

A new independence option for the holyrood elections in 2021 would be music to my ears. Unfortunately voting SNP for my first and second vote ends up giving a unionist an extra seat via the list. An independence supporting party campaigning exclusively for the 2nd vote would help keep a pro independence majority.

Thrugelmir

tatartan wrote: »

One last question...for those who say Scotland is too wee and too poor and too stupid...why beg us to stay?

No one is begging. We live in a world where polticians are telling people. Rather than listening. Polticians generally are a poor bunch driven by ideology rather than having any particular competencies.

tatartan

baldelectrician wrote: »

I have also noticed the high amounts of frothing amongst the ultra unionists

If I was a unionist - and I don't mean one of those British nationalist types who have poppies (nothing wrong with them btw it's just to paint a picture)in their profile picture year round, no hair a beer belly and when drunk and in groups at football games start doing nazi salutes - i'd be out asking these groups to stop damaging the case for the union. I had the misfortune of experiencing this first had on the only independence march I have attended. The group of about 25 spewed hatred and bile for hours as tends of thousands marched pass with a smile on their face.

I wish they could paint a positive case for the union but they can't, and as time passes their rhetoric only gets more extreme, more hateful. This didn't happen, at least in public before 2014, so when they say that this independence debate is creating division, I'd agree with them, and that's about all I agree with them on!

tatartan

Thrugelmir wrote: »

No one is begging. We live in a world where polticians are telling people. Rather than listening. Polticians generally are a poor bunch driven by ideology rather than having any particular competencies.

Do you live in Scotland? Because from where I stand up here it comes across as desperate, especially hearing the news about this £5 million ad campaign. In 2014 people south of the border were recruited to call scots homes to plead for them to not vote yes, students from Manchester were bussed up to campaign in Glasgow, Labour sent a fleet of politicians from down south in a publicity stunt - that failed by the way. Now why are politicians form down south (who don't live and work in Scotland) being permitted to interfere in our political affairs? its desperation.

In what other country in the world is another country allowed to have so much of a say over another countries affairs? its not democracy its absurd and its desperate. If I really tried I could find a clip of the prime minster standing on a podium at Glasgow Caledonian university saying "please scotland we want you to say". There is a lot more of this, its been happening since 2014 and still goes on. If not begging its about as close as the UK government can get.

baldelectrician

Donald Tusk has now broken his silence on Scotland and the EU, now the UK is a third country

https://youtu.be/VQ4m7vk_QI0

Thrugelmir

tatartan wrote: »

Do you live in Scotland? Because from where I stand up here it comes across as desperate, especially hearing the news about this £5 million ad campaign. In 2014 people south of the border were recruited to call scots homes to plead for them to not vote yes, students from Manchester were bussed up to campaign in Glasgow, Labour sent a fleet of politicians from down south in a publicity stunt - that failed by the way. Now why are politicians form down south (who don't live and work in Scotland) being permitted to interfere in our political affairs? its desperation.

In what other country in the world is another country allowed to have so much of a say over another countries affairs? its not democracy its absurd and its desperate. If I really tried I could find a clip of the prime minster standing on a podium at Glasgow Caledonian university saying "please scotland we want you to say". There is a lot more of this, its been happening since 2014 and still goes on. If not begging its about as close as the UK government can get.

As you say the same old circular argument goes on and on. Hopefully the Scottish Government will get on with it's day job. As the endless daily ranting sounds desperate. To convince the electorate. Surely the way forward is to improve the Scottish economy and well being of all. Playing politics has a limited shelf life.

tatartan

Thrugelmir wrote: »

As you say the same old circular argument goes on and on. Hopefully the Scottish Government will get on with it's day job. As the endless daily ranting sounds desperate. To convince the electorate. Surely the way forward is to improve the Scottish economy and well being of all. Playing politics has a limited shelf life.

The things is, what you have just said, "get on with the day job" is just a soundbite and the current fashionable tactic of the SNPs political opponents. It doesn't mean anything at all, what do you mean exactly? Where is the substance in that? because if you think the Scottish government have ONLY been discussing and legislating for Scottish independence you are mistaken. Even in the past few months there have been significant changes in a wide range of areas that have absolutely no link to Scottish independence. The SNP's political opponents use it as its an "easy" win, but its not an argument, people from down south repeat it because they don't follow Scottish politics and the changes happening weekly because again its "easy" to say and sounds clever.

It would be closer to being credible if the tories in Westminster were saying it about the northern irish assembly which practically didn't work for god knows how many months , but they don't, somehow its the Scottish government that isn't "getting on with the day job"

I used to be a member of the SNP but no longer am, in fact as soon as we got independence, if we do, I'd vote for another party in a heartbeat, they aren't close to perfect by any means, but they are working and they are spreading themselves across other issues other than independence.

Also, its difficult to work on the economy when all the major economic levers are at Westminster, just this week Nicola sturgeon asked for one these, immigration via a scottish visa, to entice workers we need up her, young workers to contribute to our tax base and workforce, but this proposal wasn't even read by Boris before it was refused. Unfortunately our economy is tied to Englands which will realistically always be the case, but at least with independence we would have some power to mitigate any negatives.

cognoscente

tatartan wrote: »

The things is, what you have just said, "get on with the day job" is just a soundbite and the current fashionable tactic of the SNPs political opponents. It doesn't mean anything at all, what do you mean exactly? Where is the substance in that?

The failure of Scottish education and the failure of Scottish policing will do for starters. The GE doesn't really agree with your personal opinion either with a smaller turnout and still the SNP couldn't get as many seats as they held in 2015 when, to remind you, they managed 56 seats. It's quite obvious from that result that a lot of Scots aren't quite so keen as you suggest.

Your nat friends say it's "the biggest change"; "dragged out", etc. etc. and yet the SNP can't win more seats than it did after the indyref!

tatartan

cognoscente wrote: »

The failure of Scottish education and the failure of Scottish policing will do for starters. The GE doesn't really agree with your personal opinion either with a smaller turnout and still the SNP couldn't get as many seats as they held in 2015 when, to remind you, they managed 56 seats. It's quite obvious from that result that a lot of Scots aren't quite so keen as you suggest.

Your nat friends say it's "the biggest change"; "dragged out", etc. etc. and yet the SNP can't win more seats than it did after the indyref!

What failure of scottish policing? Crime is at one of the lowest points in scottish history, meanwhile down south there seems to be a stabbing incident every weekend unfortunately and it shows no signs of stopping. Per head of population Scotland is comparatively safe and one of the safest places in europe.

As for education I agree there is issues but the latest data seems to indicate that worsening standards have been halted. A plan has been put in place and hopefully it works! Meanwhile student debt is at something like £13,000 per student up here and £50,000 per student down south. The attainment gap between rich and poor is closing here but widening in England. Issues yet but it isn't all bad.

I would appreciate it if you had a read of this article: https://www.thenational.scot/news/18186291.fact-check-claim-snp-abject-failings-education/

I concede it is a pro independence newspaper but you, like I, should do the debate justice by listening to both sides.

I'm sorry but because the SNP didn't get 56 seats out of 59 it is a failure? :rotfl: No political party EVER down south has got 95% of the seats: which 56 out of 59 would be. 80% of the scottish seats is undeniably impressive.

Shakethedisease

tatartan wrote: »

A new independence option for the holyrood elections in 2021 would be music to my ears. Unfortunately voting SNP for my first and second vote ends up giving a unionist an extra seat via the list. An independence supporting party campaigning exclusively for the 2nd vote would help keep a pro independence majority.

I'm actually thinking along the same lines now. There's too many that don't understand that gaining a majority in a FPTP system is different from a majority in AMS elections. I got really fed up in 2016 trying to explain that the SNP 'lost' their majority by doing far too well in the FPTP constituency votes. 2011 was a fluke. It's unlikely to be repeated, and those who are all over the newpapers saying 'oh if the SNP, (note not pro-indy parties), win a majority in 2021 then we'll think about it'.... know it too.

Unison coming out for an independence referendum yesterday is very significant. Traditional labour voters have had just about enough, especially with their now shell of a Scottish Party.

Scotland's largest trade union has backed calls for a second independence referendum. A meeting of Unison's Scottish council has voted in favour of indyref2 at a time to be determined by the Scottish Parliament

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-51340598

And as for the next referendum. Nicola did say she wouldn't rule out going to court. But the same group who crowdfunded the recent legal opinon by Aidan O'Neil aren't prepared to wait. And have launched their own legal case.

The Peoples Action on Section 30 | An action raised on behalf of ordinary members of the Scottish Electorate against the UK Government.

Let the record reflect that legal counsel has now formally intimated pre-litigation correspondence to the Advocate General and copies have been sent to the Scottish Government Legal Department and to the Lord Advocate. A copy is below.

https://twitter.com/PeoplesAS30/status/1223297675082260485 I guess we'll see how that one goes. The SNP not going down this road right now does puzzle me a bit. Something is either legal or it's not, best to find out what the score is asap. Thank goodness there are people out there who are willing to just go for it themselves.

Donald Tusk though

Unionists: "Ha ha hah, you won't be allowed in the EU!"
Donald Tusk: "I feel very Scottish."

:rotfl:


Tides are definitely turning.