The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

elantan

I'm currently sitting in a pub just outside of Eilean Donan there's a guy with an Indy ref 2 hat on and the discussion is all about independence ... it's interesting to hear other people's views on the subject ... especially when they live a good few hours drive from myself and husband ... the amount of Yes and Aye stickers we've passed has been many ... indy doesn't seem dead yet .. much as some people may wish it were so

TrickyTree83

elantan wrote: »

1) your comments then include many people I respect ( which happen to be members of the SNP

2) A wee geography lesson for you then, your government is in Edinburgh not London, you may not like the fact you are governed by HR and not WM but you are, admittedly HR doesn't have all the powers it needs at this time to be able to totally govern effectively but it does the best with what it has ... don't worry though indy ref 2 will sort that out ... independence will see Scotland finally being totally governed by the people who democratically voted for it
3) I don't imagine you look after the roads on which you travel ... but hey keep telling yourself you do if that helps you deal with things

4) I imagine residents of other countries will find the debating on this thread rather frustrating, I however havnt asked any of them as I don't know people in real life that read this thread

5) your gonna have to wait an awfy long time ... the call for independence is getting stronger ... even if your keeping yer fingers in yer ears it doesn't change it

Oh dear oh dear.

I took this from BBC bitesize "intermediate" modern studies. (that in itself is quite amusing).

List of devolved and reserved powers

Devolved Powers

Health
Education
Local Government
Law
Social Work and Housing
Economic Development and Transport
The Environment
Agriculture, Forestry and Fishing
Sport and the Arts

Reserved Powers

The constitution
Defence and National Security
Foreign Policy
Immigration
UK fiscal and monetary policy
Employment Legislation
Social Security
Transport and safety regulation
Nuclear energy
Broadcasting

Out of all the reserved powers the only powers that would be arguably useful for the Scottish government would probably be fiscal and monetary policy (if you had your own currency, which you don't), social security and possibly employment legislation. Since within the EU you cannot control immigration really, or employment legislation (you can only do more than the minimum) and I doubt Scottish independence warriors have issues with nuclear energy, broadcasting, transport and safety regulation, defence, foreign policy or the constitution that warrant destroying the union. Also lets point out that you'd lose a lot of power in these area within an EU super-state. Under the Scotland Act 2016 the Scottish government will be getting/has got further powers around taxation.

So lets not tell lies, lets objectively look at the truth for a moment please.

Based on the above I don't think there's the money in the Scottish economy to increase social security or better employment law, I put it to you to tell me exactly how the Scottish government doesn't have the power it needs that warrants independence. If you're unable to tell me, based on the evidence of the power that they do have (including the new taxation regulation) I can only conclude you're unhappy with the Scottish government (since 1998) and want more of the same (with increased power???) in order to solve the problem.

I simply cannot see how pro-indy supporters are well informed if they think Westminster is to blame for all their ills. That's clearly not the case.

Edit: shorter link
http://www.bbc.co.uk/education/guides/zj37hyc/revision/3

beecher2

If ever you're looking at Bitesize again, use the Nat 5 section not Intermediates as they are out of date - we do Nat 5s now as part of CfE
http://www.bbc.co.uk/education/guides/zj37hyc/revision/3

Best to edit your link as it is stopping half your message being read.

Pro independence don't think Westminster 'is to blame'. We just think we should be a normal country, making our own decisions. We have BREXIT foisted upon us and tomorrow the Trident vote will go against the wishes of the majority of our MPs.

TrickyTree83

beecher2 wrote: »

If ever you're looking at Bitesize again, use the Nat 5 section not Intermediates as they are out of date - we do Nat 5s now as part of CfE
http://www.bbc.co.uk/education/guides/zj37hyc/revision/3

Best to edit your link as it is stopping half your message being read.

Pro independence don't think Westminster 'is to blame'. We just think we should be a normal country, making our own decisions. We have BREXIT foisted upon us and tomorrow the Trident vote will go against the wishes of the majority of our MPs.

Fair enough about the link. It was just the first one that come up in google. Previously I've used the offical Scottish government pages for the info.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/education/guides/zj37hyc/revision/3

That one works well and says the same about the devolved/reserved powers.

Good to see you've conceded that it's not a lack of power that causes you to want to vote for independence, you just want your country back, right?

And yet... isn't that part of the argument people who voted to leave the EU said, "we want our country back", and you want to become independent to re-join the EU as most of Scotland voted to remain in the EU? Where exactly does the Scottish population see itself? Surely it seems there's just a load of contradictions flying around and no one really has a sensible answer on the issue at all.

I want to add, the lack of clarity and the lack of detail as to why, the lack of attention to the economic detail which impacts pretty much every aspect of the everyday persons life appears to mean that the yearning for independence is simply an anlgophobic feeling rather than a rational one.

beecher2

No, it does say the same, just wanted to update you on the Nat5s.

Obviously if I'm saying that I want my country to make its own decisions, I believe that we have a lack of power at the moment. I wouldn't use language like 'want my country back' though, as it seems overly aggressive to me. I'm not a 'warrior', not here for a fight, I've quietly made my mind up about independence years ago and don't really feel the need to justify to others any more. I just want to be part of a normal country, with normal relations with other countries and despair at the lack of knowledge about Scottish politics and what is important to Scots (and although it should go without saying, I mean those who voted Yes and No here, and I mean those born elsewhere but choosing to live here too)

TrickyTree83

beecher2 wrote: »

No, it does say the same, just wanted to update you on the Nat5s.

Obviously if I'm saying that I want my country to make its own decisions, I believe that we have a lack of power at the moment. I wouldn't use language like 'want my country back' though, as it seems overly aggressive to me. I'm not a 'warrior', not here for a fight, I've quietly made my mind up about independence years ago and don't really feel the need to justify to others any more. I just want to be part of a normal country, with normal relations with other countries and despair at the lack of knowledge about Scottish politics and what is important to Scots (and although it should go without saying, I mean those who voted Yes and No here, and I mean those born elsewhere but choosing to live here too)

What power do you lack?

You don't like pooling sovereignty with Westminster but will happily pool it with the EU?

beecher2

The power to remove Trident from Faslane for one thing. It'd be quite good to have a government we voted for too.

Anyway nice catching up with the thread again, but I'm off back to my normal threads again before I get sucked in further.

I'll be back when the second referendum is called

TrickyTree83

beecher2 wrote: »

The power to remove Trident from Faslane for one thing. It'd be quite good to have a government we voted for too.

Any nice catching up with the thread again, but I'm off back to my normal threads again before I get sucked in further.

Sorry but Trident is an issue for everyone in the UK, my view on Trident is equal to yours. If it was based elsewhere it wouldn't be an issue.

You do have a government you voted for, they have all the MP's they can muster in Westminster and you have a devolved government you did vote for who have substantial powers.

Seems to me there isn't any valid arguments for independece short of



In fact the level of debate and logic would suggest you lot might vote to be independent and then install Mel Gibson as your king.

wotsthat

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

You don't like pooling sovereignty with Westminster but will happily pool it with the EU?

The SNP's reason to be is independence.

It's easier to see this thread as a bit of fun once you realise this and just laugh at the consistent inconsistencies.

If the UK had voted 52:48 to stay and Scotland 60:40 to leave that would also be a reason for another referendum. It's nothing to do with wanting EU membership; it's a point of difference which the SNP are programmed to exploit.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Where exactly does the Scottish population see itself? .

I can't speak for the Scottish population but I have no desire for Scottish Independence and would see it very much as a last resort to prevent us from being pulled out of the EU/Single Market against our wishes.

Based on the facts then applicable, Scotland voted to stay in the UK in the Scottish Indyref, however there has now been a material change in circumstances.

The desire of the Scottish people to remain in the EU is not an SNP argument, or even a Scottish Independence argument, so if people are interested in accurate discussion on this topic they should probably stop referring to it as such.

The support for remaining in the EU runs right across Scottish society and in fact SNP voters were marginally more likely to vote to leave the EU than anyone else - 29% of SNP voters actually voted to leave the EU, while only 27% of Scottish Conservative and Unionist party voters wanted to leave the EU, and only 17% of Scottish Labour - but there were clear majorities for staying in right across the political spectrum.

Nor is this about "countries making their own decisions" for the majority of Scots..... After all we firmly voted to remain in the UK in 2014 handily dispatching that argument.

I think it's simply that we didn't buy the hysterical false propaganda coming from the leave campaign about Brussels and realised that the overwhelming majority of laws are in fact made in Holyrood or Westminster.

EU membership is still mostly about harmonising trade regulations and product standards, (which is what something like 90% of EU laws and regulations impact on UK legislation is about), and almost all of the real legislation that actually affects most people's lives is British in origin.

Not a single area in Scotland voted to leave the EU.

100% of constituencies voted to remain.

On this topic (unlike the last indyref) the Scottish people are absolutely united, the borders and the islands voted to remain, as did the highlands and lowlands, the cities and the countryside.

The majority of Scots want to remain in the EU.

That is almost certainly enough to swing a second Indyref for Scotland if it's the only way to retain EU/Single Market membership for Scots.

Sturgeon is quite rightly arguing that the overwhelming democratic will of the Scottish people is to remain in the EU.

Scotland's leaders and politicians therefore have a mandate from the Scottish people to try everything in their power to ensure that happens.

Of course Theresa May can still hold the UK together... And I hope she does.

But she will need to find a solution that involves Scotland, Gibraltar and Northern Ireland retaining the key benefits - free movement for our people and unrestricted full membership of the Single Market - and the closer she makes the UK deal to that the less impetus there will be for the break up of Britain