The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

westernpromise

Just go back to making lists of people you hate and promising you'll steal their money and give it to your voters. When is Labour going to ban "Zionists" from the civil service and universities? Maybe you could start there, then expropriate them.

Moby

westernpromise wrote: »

Just go back to making lists of people you hate and promising you'll steal their money and give it to your voters. When is Labour going to ban "Zionists" from the civil service and universities? Maybe you could start there, then expropriate them.

Chill man. Here's a self help guide which is bound to cater for you:-
https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/the-gammons-guide-to-coping-with-brexit-not-happening-20190412184638

loadsacash

Moby wrote: »

We have nothing to laugh about in Scotland! The 'Better Together' strategy really turned out well for Labour in the last referendum didn't it? Labour led the campaign took all the nationalist flack and arguably won the debate against the SNP and then we lost all our MP's from the backlash. Labour is now in the position of being unelectable in the UK because of the lack of MP's in Scotland..... the SNP has sucked up all the anti Westminster vote and the tories have sucked up the 'mollycat' constituency. That's cost us 40 odd MP's I reckon! Now why did that happen?.......
......I remember that 'Better Together' campaign very well. We promised people that they should vote to protect the pound in their pocket and the best way to do that was to vote against independence because that was the only way they could guarantee remaining in the EU with all its benefits....we also told them an independent Scotland would not be in the EU and furthermore would have to jump through many hoops to join as an independent country! When do you think Labour will be trusted again in Scotland?

We were also told that the Scottish Government had obtained Legal advice that if Scotland voted for Independence we could just remain in the EU, in fact the Scottish Government would not give details of that legal advice and spent thousands of pounds on avoiding giving the details of that advice - that didn't even exist!

The SNP just want Independence and they will tell you anything to get that!

Labour will not be trusted?

So who are you going to trust then?

Arklight

Moby wrote: »

We have nothing to laugh about in Scotland! The 'Better Together' strategy really turned out well for Labour in the last referendum didn't it? Labour led the campaign took all the nationalist flack and arguably won the debate against the SNP and then we lost all our MP's from the backlash. Labour is now in the position of being unelectable in the UK because of the lack of MP's in Scotland..... the SNP has sucked up all the anti Westminster vote and the tories have sucked up the 'mollycat' constituency. That's cost us 40 odd MP's I reckon! Now why did that happen?.......
......I remember that 'Better Together' campaign very well. We promised people that they should vote to protect the pound in their pocket and the best way to do that was to vote against independence because that was the only way they could guarantee remaining in the EU with all its benefits....we also told them an independent Scotland would not be in the EU and furthermore would have to jump through many hoops to join as an independent country! When do you think Labour will be trusted again in Scotland?

I'm not saying Labour has done a great job in Scotland, and I'm more than aware of the childish bitterness with which the Nats view Scottish Labour (alongside everything else they view with childish bitterness). Nevertheless, Scotland has put itself in the position of voting against Independence on a national level, then for a single issue Independence party for their regional government.

At some point they'll need to decide what they want. At the last general election apparently what they wanted was enough Tory MPs to form a Tory government, and an SNP administration that would do little but moan about independence on an epic scale, with no intention of delivering it.

Other than that what's actually changed for Scotland? They still get the same colossal amount of subsidies paid for by the rest of the UK.

I was pretty pro Union for a long time but as a democratic socialist, I won't be crying my eyes out if they do (finally) go. I also suspect the doleites expecting their share of the "oil billions" would be rather disappointed if they did get independence when the SNP showed their true colours.

The obstacle to getting the Tories out of power in England is generational not regional. If you look at bigoted old men and their wives who vote how they're told, then England is Tory through and through. If you look at the under 40s it's a progressive alliance of lib dem, Labour, and Green. And we know who's going to be around to vote longer.

Forget about Scotland. It's not the future.

mollycat

Moby wrote: »

.....the SNP has sucked up all the anti Westminster vote and the tories have sucked up the 'mollycat' constituency. That's cost us 40 odd MP's I reckon! Now why did that happen?.......

Don't vote Tory, sorry

Nether do any of my friends/ family who are NO voters, and I suspect the majority of folk who think independence is a ridiculous idea also either don't vote Tory or don't vote at all. (Turnouts are back to their apathetic pre referendum levels).

Remember, after 2014 people thought it was safe to continue to protest against both Labour and Conservative by voting SNP as they thought democracy would be respected and that the independence issue was laid to rest for a generation.

It's the pro independence posters on here that are obsessed with all things Tory; I suspect most NO voters fear an independence economic meltdown far more than they fear the worst the 2 main parties of Westminster can dish up when they are in power.

Moby

mollycat wrote: »

Don't vote Tory, sorry

Nether do any of my friends/ family who are NO voters, and I suspect the majority of folk who think independence is a ridiculous idea also either don't vote Tory or don't vote at all. (Turnouts are back to their apathetic pre referendum levels).

Remember, after 2014 people thought it was safe to continue to protest against both Labour and Conservative by voting SNP as they thought democracy would be respected and that the independence issue was laid to rest for a generation.

It's the pro independence posters on here that are obsessed with all things Tory; I suspect most NO voters fear an independence economic meltdown far more than they fear the worst the 2 main parties of Westminster can dish up when they are in power.

My point is though that the brexit vote has changed the narrative in Scotland. The Labour Party is finished there and historically Labour was a major unifying factor. I'm also struck by how many of the next generation want independence now. The dynamic has definitely changed since the brexit vote. The move towards independence is also fuelled by growing English nationalism banging the drum of the unfairness of the Barnett formula trope. Your average remainer Scot is having less and less incentive to see the union as a good thing? Also our next PM described the Scottish people as vermin. The SNP will love having Johnson as PM. Nothing is certain but the signs are the divide is growing!

Boomslang

Shakethedisease wrote: »

No one will be able to hear a thing between the hysterical laughter and champagne corks popping at SNP HQ. :beer::rotfl:

The Nats have a habit of counting their chickens....lol

mollycat

Moby wrote: »

My point is though that the brexit vote has changed the narrative in Scotland. The Labour Party is finished there and historically Labour was a major unifying factor. I'm also struck by how many of the next generation want independence now. The dynamic has definitely changed since the brexit vote. The move towards independence is also fuelled by growing English nationalism banging the drum of the unfairness of the Barnett formula trope. Your average remainer Scot is having less and less incentive to see the union as a good thing? Also our next PM described the Scottish people as vermin. The SNP will love having Johnson as PM. Nothing is certain but the signs are the divide is growing!

I don't necessarily agree, I don't think there is a big swell of supporttowards independence post Brexit, but it's fine to differ

Most NO/Remain supporters see Brexit as a bad thing, but also realise there's no real advantage in compounding one bad thing with a further bad thing, (independence), which will make post Brexit Scotland an even more harsh place than rUK.

Of course the pro indy brigade are exploiting the Tory/Boris/Brexit short term disatisfaction card for all it's worth without having the foggiest idea of how an independent Scotland would pay for it's benefits and services; cue a post independence austerity in Scotland never before seen or imagined. Boris won't be PM for ever, the Tories wont be in power for ever, so promoting such a permanent, destructive leap into the dark based on the here and now is the real, exploitative "project fear".

With regards to party politics, that will return to it's "normal" once independence enters its final death throes; there's now a voting heirarcy in Scotland that bucks all historical trends and logic. Labour, Conservative and LD voters all dislike the idea of Nationalism much more than they dislike each other and therefore vote strategically dependant on who is the more likely to defeat them.

So you are right, people like me would vote Tory if I lived in an appropriate constituency.

Defeating nationalism is the short term goal; then a return to conventional party politics in Scotland.

Moby

mollycat wrote: »

I don't necessarily agree, I don't think there is a big swell of supporttowards independence post Brexit, but it's fine to differ

Most NO/Remain supporters see Brexit as a bad thing, but also realise there's no real advantage in compounding one bad thing with a further bad thing, (independence), which will make post Brexit Scotland an even more harsh place than rUK.

Of course the pro indy brigade are exploiting the Tory/Boris/Brexit short term disatisfaction card for all it's worth without having the foggiest idea of how an independent Scotland would pay for it's benefits and services; cue a post independence austerity in Scotland never before seen or imagined. Boris won't be PM for ever, the Tories wont be in power for ever, so promoting such a permanent, destructive leap into the dark based on the here and now is the real, exploitative "project fear".

With regards to party politics, that will return to it's "normal" once independence enters its final death throes; there's now a voting heirarcy in Scotland that bucks all historical trends and logic. Labour, Conservative and LD voters all dislike the idea of Nationalism much more than they dislike each other and therefore vote strategically dependant on who is the more likely to defeat them.

So you are right, people like me would vote Tory if I lived in an appropriate constituency.

Defeating nationalism is the short term goal; then a return to conventional party politics in Scotland.

Time will tell I suppose but what is it that gives you faith that the independence movement will fade away?

mollycat

Moby wrote: »

Time will tell I suppose but what is it that gives you faith that the independence movement will fade away?

I live here!

Seriously, it peaked in 2014 and has been declining since.

Despite the message given by the media there is no widespread outrage at Brexit/Boris etc; more a reluctance that democracy be honoured (2016 Referendum), and a common sense that Brexit is better faced with the support and industry of like winded souls in rUK.

Obviously the (now diminishing) minority who support independence continue the insidious tactic of trying to create division. Barnett is unfair, and by presenting imaginary grudge and disatisfaction with all things WM of course they are going to cause a section of the rUK populace to become resentful and adopt a "just give them their indyref2"......a transparent tactic that highlights the lack of a positive and persuavive message for seperation.

I think we as a country are too sensible to vote away our standards of living because we are possibly going to have a clown for a PM for a wee while.

All IMHO of course