The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

Shakethedisease

Nasqueron wrote: »

Er what?

You stated the support is 45%
QED the opposition is 55%

What is misleading or incorrect about that?

In fact, a poll for the Scotsman in November put remain at 60%! What Scotland Thinks agregator (source) shows 45% for yes 5th December is the high point since 11th March (46%) as Yes has been hovering around 40-41% for the last 18 months (as low as 32% in February). Sturgeon won't risk it as the "once in a generation" re-run being lost again will kill the vote for a lifetime.

On the rest of your points:

Fact: the Electoral Commission banned the question Salmond proposed because it was biased
Source

Fact: Alex Salmond changed the law to allow 16/17 year olds to vote in the referendum and paid for them all to be registered
Source

What else do you want to discuss?

The lie that Scotland would keep the pound if they voted leave?
-- UK Government ruled that out

The lie that Scotland would "transition" into the EU?
-- EU ruled that out

The lie that Scotland would remain in NATO
-- NATO ruled that out

Or the tricks they used like holding it in 2014, deliberately chosen as it was the year of:
- the 700th anniversary of Bannockburn (on which they spent £650k)
- the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow
- the Ryder cup in Gleneagles
- the second "year of homecoming" festival?

Polls are meaningless until a vote date and campaigning starts properly. See Brexit, General Elections and last Scottish referendum for evidence.

45% is a starting number. And, thankfully we do not rely purely on polls in the UK in order to dictate if votes are held or not.

The rest of your post is a little light on truth. Very heavy on bias and basic uninformed nonsense about £'s and the EU ruling things out. I can't even be bothered countering much of it to be honest. The Scotsman as evidence of anything means it can be instantly discounted as anywhere near truthful when it comes to the SNP or independence. NATO too lol.. You might want to look it up GIUK gap/Scotland on a map and then re-assess your frankly quite worrying assertions. All of which seem to have come straight from the pages of Daily Express and are total fabrications for the most part.

Sturgeon will go for a vote as soon as its clear what's happening with this Brexit vote in Westminster and the fallout from it. There's little point calling a Scottish vote on independence ( in the admittedly unlikely event ) of Article 50 being revoked should this Tory govt fall. We'll have to wait and see... If there's a General Election the SNP will stand on an independence ticket, if there's not then Sturgeon also has the option as mentioned of resigning and instigating Holyrood elections also on an independence ticket. Lots of possibilities as yet.. best to keep ones powder dry eh.

LHW99

If there's a General Election the SNP will stand on an independence ticket

Forgive my English ignorance, I thought the Scottish National Party actually stood for independence anyway.

phillw

LHW99 wrote: »

Forgive my English ignorance, I thought the Scottish National Party actually stood for independence anyway.

You make far too many assumptions about politicians.

Thrugelmir

Shakethedisease wrote: »

45% is a starting number. And, thankfully we do not rely purely on polls in the UK in order to dictate if votes are held or not.

If Scottish politics is anything like the football. Then there's a deep divide to be overcome.

antrobus

Shakethedisease wrote: »

...

Sturgeon will go for a vote as soon as its clear what's happening with this Brexit vote in Westminster and the fallout from it. There's little point calling a Scottish vote on independence ....

Oh no. We're back to this again.

The constitution is a reserved matter. Only the UK Parliament can call for a referendum on independence.

Whatever Sturgeon 'goes for' is neither here nor there and can safely be ignored. If the Scottish Parliament really gets itself into a position where it wants to p*** about, the UK can simply stop sending them any more money.:)

Rainbowgirl84

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Polls are meaningless until a vote date and campaigning starts properly. See Brexit, General Elections and last Scottish referendum for evidence.

45% is a starting number. And, thankfully we do not rely purely on polls in the UK in order to dictate if votes are held or not.

The rest of your post is a little light on truth. Very heavy on bias and basic uninformed nonsense about £'s and the EU ruling things out. I can't even be bothered countering much of it to be honest. The Scotsman as evidence of anything means it can be instantly discounted as anywhere near truthful when it comes to the SNP or independence. NATO too lol.. You might want to look it up GIUK gap/Scotland on a map and then re-assess your frankly quite worrying assertions. All of which seem to have come straight from the pages of Daily Express and are total fabrications for the most part.

Sturgeon will go for a vote as soon as its clear what's happening with this Brexit vote in Westminster and the fallout from it. There's little point calling a Scottish vote on independence ( in the admittedly unlikely event ) of Article 50 being revoked should this Tory govt fall. We'll have to wait and see... If there's a General Election the SNP will stand on an independence ticket, if there's not then Sturgeon also has the option as mentioned of resigning and instigating Holyrood elections also on an independence ticket. Lots of possibilities as yet.. best to keep ones powder dry eh.

Eh? If polls are so meaningless why do you insist on quoting them? Your posts on this thread are littered with them.

Arklight

Rainbowgirl84 wrote: »

Eh? If polls are so meaningless why do you insist on quoting them? Your posts on this thread are littered with them.

The polls are meaningless unless they say what the Nats want to hear, apparently. According to the Shakemeister's polling analysis of polling trends before the actual vote, Yes should have won with 147% of the vote :rotfl:

Cetshwayo

Contemptuous Scottish Government:-

"Do as we say not as we do"

The Scottish government has admitted acting unlawfully while investigating sexual harassment claims against Alex Salmond.

Allegations against the former first minister, which he denies, were made to the Scottish government a year ago.

The government has now admitted it breached its own guidelines by appointing an investigating officer who had "prior involvement" in the case.

You couldn't make this up on so many levels. Stupidity, incompetence, vendetta, grandstanding etc take your pick.

And now we the people (all the people not just the Nats) have to pick up the tab.

Shameful.

Nasqueron

Shakethedisease wrote: »

Polls are meaningless until a vote date and campaigning starts properly. See Brexit, General Elections and last Scottish referendum for evidence.

45% is a starting number. And, thankfully we do not rely purely on polls in the UK in order to dictate if votes are held or not.

The rest of your post is a little light on truth. Very heavy on bias and basic uninformed nonsense about £'s and the EU ruling things out. I can't even be bothered countering much of it to be honest. The Scotsman as evidence of anything means it can be instantly discounted as anywhere near truthful when it comes to the SNP or independence. NATO too lol.. You might want to look it up GIUK gap/Scotland on a map and then re-assess your frankly quite worrying assertions. All of which seem to have come straight from the pages of Daily Express and are total fabrications for the most part.

Sturgeon will go for a vote as soon as its clear what's happening with this Brexit vote in Westminster and the fallout from it. There's little point calling a Scottish vote on independence ( in the admittedly unlikely event ) of Article 50 being revoked should this Tory govt fall. We'll have to wait and see... If there's a General Election the SNP will stand on an independence ticket, if there's not then Sturgeon also has the option as mentioned of resigning and instigating Holyrood elections also on an independence ticket. Lots of possibilities as yet.. best to keep ones powder dry eh.

Ah yes the classic logical fallacies of a poor debate:


Deflection
Attacking source
Strawman


Polls: people always pick and choose them if they support what they want. The fact that CONSISTENTLY leave have not been close to even 50% shows a trend. The Scottish referendum polls showed remain would win, remain won. The YouGov final poll before the vote was within 1%. The EU referendum polls showed, within a margin of error, the polls were too close to call. The UK election was an anomaly because no-one expected Corbyn to promise all that unfunded nonsense and for the general public to believe it. 45% isn't a starting point, that was the high point of support and what you got in the last vote. The Scotsman is not the only poll as I said (classic attempt to ignore all the evidence and focus only on bits you don't like). Given May's terrible job, given article 50, given no deal, given all the factors, SNP should be rocking 60+% support for leaving without even having to get out of bed in the morning. 45% was the result last time and leave hasn't gained a single step.


Nothing I wrote was uninformed


The UK government controls the pound. If Scotland voted leave, the UK government can refuse to allow another country to use their currency, thus they have no central bank like BoE to back their currency so they get a crazy low credit rating and massive borrowing costs. Look at the countries that unofficially use the dollar and how bad their economies are without any central bank. Moreover, joining the EU as a new country, which Scotland would have to, under Article 49, they would be expected to join the Euro.



The EU categorically stated that Scotland could not "transition" into the EU, it was made crystal clear that Salmond's argument was false. Article 48 (Salmond's lie) was never written to allow new members to join the EU (source here - LSE). It would also require UK government approval as well as approval from all member states. At the time Spain ruled out approving it to discourage the Basque people.


NATO themselves said Scotland could not assume to be a member (source here) not least because of the defence spending needed but also all 28 members would have to approve. SNP's opposition to nuclear weapons was also a problem.


Feel free to reply again without any evidence though.

cogito

Nasqueron wrote: »

Ah yes the classic logical fallacies of a poor debate:


Deflection
Attacking source
Strawman


Polls: people always pick and choose them if they support what they want. The fact that CONSISTENTLY leave have not been close to even 50% shows a trend. The Scottish referendum polls showed remain would win, remain won. The YouGov final poll before the vote was within 1%. The EU referendum polls showed, within a margin of error, the polls were too close to call. The UK election was an anomaly because no-one expected Corbyn to promise all that unfunded nonsense and for the general public to believe it. 45% isn't a starting point, that was the high point of support and what you got in the last vote. The Scotsman is not the only poll as I said (classic attempt to ignore all the evidence and focus only on bits you don't like). Given May's terrible job, given article 50, given no deal, given all the factors, SNP should be rocking 60+% support for leaving without even having to get out of bed in the morning. 45% was the result last time and leave hasn't gained a single step.


Nothing I wrote was uninformed


The UK government controls the pound. If Scotland voted leave, the UK government can refuse to allow another country to use their currency, thus they have no central bank like BoE to back their currency so they get a crazy low credit rating and massive borrowing costs. Look at the countries that unofficially use the dollar and how bad their economies are without any central bank. Moreover, joining the EU as a new country, which Scotland would have to, under Article 49, they would be expected to join the Euro.



The EU categorically stated that Scotland could not "transition" into the EU, it was made crystal clear that Salmond's argument was false. Article 48 (Salmond's lie) was never written to allow new members to join the EU (source here - LSE). It would also require UK government approval as well as approval from all member states. At the time Spain ruled out approving it to discourage the Basque people.


NATO themselves said Scotland could not assume to be a member (source here) not least because of the defence spending needed but also all 28 members would have to approve. SNP's opposition to nuclear weapons was also a problem.


Feel free to reply again without any evidence though.

Other than the fact that it was the Catalans not the Basques, your post is spot on.