The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

mwpt

elantan wrote: »

My reason for wanting I dependence is I believe the people that are the nest to make decisions about a country are the ones that have to live with the results, I believe Scotland should be independent , if I lived in England I would support English independence, if I lived in Wales I would support Welsh independence and so it goes on.

It's not hard to see or understand that We should rule ourselves.

I also believe it is good to share ideas between countries but I believe it is ultimately up to those countries if they choose to take those ideas up

The same reasons were given by the leave campaign for UK leaving the EU. If these people were consistent they would support your desire for independence.

I personally don't because I think that the desire for independence is a misguided emotional one, in both cases. It is humorous watching TrickyTreat and co twist this trying to marry the incongruous views.

TrickyTree83

elantan wrote: »

My reason for wanting I dependence is I believe the people that are the nest to make decisions about a country are the ones that have to live with the results, I believe Scotland should be independent , if I lived in England I would support English independence, if I lived in Wales I would support Welsh independence and so it goes on.

It's not hard to see or understand that We should rule ourselves.

I also believe it is good to share ideas between countries but I believe it is ultimately up to those countries if they choose to take those ideas up

So it's an emotive vote?

I think a lot of people would say you already do decide on the issues that affect your country, and that the country is called the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. All the peoples of the UK are able to elect representatives to the UK parliament and able to change their mind if they disagree with what the UK parliament has/is doing.

This disonnect between feeling you live in the UK or Scotland appears to be the issue doesn't it? Why do you feel you're not living in the UK?

For me, whilst I'm aware I'm in England, I consider that I'm living in the UK, under a UK flag, a UK armed forces, a UK parliament alongside my fellow UK citizens in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

elantan

ruggedtoast wrote: »

Well I am bloody well not supporting it. I cannot imagine what kind of government we would end up with here.

They're already talking about deporting people from the EU who live here.

:-(

Aye that would need to be dealt with ... it does kinda look from where I'm sitting that the English feel very differently to their country and it's future than the Scottish do, I'm glad I live where I do live if I'm to be honest. I am sure the majority of English are fantastic people but there are quite a few that I would disagree with BNP and EDL supporters to name a few ... Scotland does have a SDL, but it is tiny and a significant proportion of the members dont come.from.Scotland

elantan

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

So it's an emotive vote?

I think a lot of people would say you already do decide on the issues that affect your country, and that the country is called the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. All the peoples of the UK are able to elect representatives to the UK parliament and able to change their mind if they disagree with what the UK parliament has/is doing.

This disonnect between feeling you live in the UK or Scotland appears to be the issue doesn't it? Why do you feel you're not living in the UK?

For me, whilst I'm aware I'm in England, I consider that I'm living in the UK, under a UK flag, a UK armed forces, a UK parliament alongside my fellow UK citizens in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

I think maybe you have finally got to a part of the issue ... I am English, living in Scotland, I don't feel British or UK and don't want to be politically part of that, the people of Scotland don't in actual fact get much say in their country the majority is still ruled by WM, WM does not look after the people of the country I live in, I also believe they do not look after the people of Northern England, but I believe that is for the people of Northern England to decide to deal with ... or not.

As I say ... Simples ... we see things differently, I have no wish to change your mind, and I know you won't ever change my mind.

TrickyTree83

mwpt wrote: »

The same reasons were given by the leave campaign for UK leaving the EU. If these people were consistent they would support your desire for independence.

I personally don't because I think that the desire for independence is a misguided emotional one, in both cases. It is humorous watching TrickyTreat and co twist this trying to marry the incongruous views.

Well that's just because you're pigeonholing me as a particular type of Leave voter, one that identified with the Leave campaign, I never did. I didn't cast my vote because of Boris, Gove, Farage or any other of the faces of the Leave campaign. I did in fact go on record on this forum saying I'm more closely aligned with Daniel Hannan's views but my views are my own with regards to the EU.

TrickyTree83

elantan wrote: »

I think maybe you have finally got to a part of the issue ... I am English, living in Scotland, I don't feel British or UK and don't want to be politically part of that, the people of Scotland don't in actual fact get much say in their country the majority is still ruled by WM, WM does not look after the people of the country I live in, I also believe they do not look after the people of Northern England, but I believe that is for the people of Northern England to decide to deal with ... or not.

As I say ... Simples ... we see things differently, I have no wish to change your mind, and I know you won't ever change my mind.

Yet since 1998 Scotland has largely been ran by the Scottish parliament.

Westminster does indeed help the people of Scotland, your point about the north of England I would absolutely agree with they have more reason to take issue with Westminster than Scotland does. Where's their Barnett? Where's the propping up of industry?

If Scotland really can go it alone lets scrap Barnett and see if your economy can deal with the hit first, raise your taxes or scrap your services (or both?). I'm sure that could be arranged especially as Mr Gove has hinted that it could take place.

Why would the SNP be up in arms about cutting Barnett funding if you didn't require it now you have control over taxation?

elantan

Sigh .... life is too short for me to break it down for you .

Come back to me when you finally understand that Scotland has very little control over itself and we can talk again ..

TrickyTree83

elantan wrote: »

Sigh .... life is too short for me to break it down for you .

Come back to me when you finally understand that Scotland has very little control over itself and we can talk again ..

Devolved matters include

agriculture, forestry and fisheries
education and training
environment
health and social services
housing
law and order
local government
sport and the arts
tourism and economic development
many aspects of transport

The key documents that define the powers of the Scottish Parliament are as follows:

The Scotland Act 1998 created a Scottish Parliament with powers to make laws on a range of issues. Schedule 5 of the Scotland Act 1998 lists what is reserved to the UK Parliament. If a matter is not mentioned as being reserved in this part of the Act, it is devolved to the Scottish Parliament.

The Scotland Act 2012 gives more powers to the Scottish Parliament or to Scottish Ministers, including the transfer of some significant financial powers. The Act also formally changes the name of the Scottish Executive to the Scottish Government. The new powers devolved to the Scottish Parliament include:
a new Scottish rate of income tax to be in place from April 2016
new borrowing powers for the Scottish Government
full control of stamp duty land tax and landfill tax from April 2015
the power to introduce new taxes, subject to agreement of the UK Government
the power to make laws on matters relating to air weapons
giving the Scottish Ministers powers relating to the misuse of drugs, the drink-drive limit, the national speed limit and the administration of elections to the Scottish Parliament
Both Acts were passed by the UK Parliament.

Further Powers

Following the referendum on Scottish independence on 18 September 2014, a process is underway to transfer further powers to the Scottish Parliament in areas such as taxation, welfare and elections to the Scottish Parliament.
The UK Government introduced the Scotland Bill in the UK Parliament on 28 May 2015. On 23 March 2016, this bill became the Scotland Act 2016.

Seems like a lot of control to me.

(source: http://www.parliament.scot/visitandlearn/12506.aspx )

Edit: And interestingly, you'll be opting to move away from a union that is devolving powers to one that is centralising them. Where is the logic in that?

elantan

I tell ya what ... let's give HR all the powers that WM have over HR and and give WM the powers HR have ... I will listen to your screams and see if you feel your government has enough power then

I'm sure you won't feel short changed when your taxes arrive and we give you pocket money back to play with ... we won't rub it in your face however ... we will just nod knowingly

elantan

Oh and when we tell you what to spend it on we won't laugh ... and we won't keep telling you your the most powerful government ...