The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

elantan

mwpt wrote: »

I really don't understand your stance.

Scottish nationalists see themselves as having lost control of their country and having their laws and affairs managed by an institution which does not represent their interest. Your view: SNP = bad

English nationalists see themselves as having lost control of their country and having their laws and affairs managed by an institution which does not represent their interest. Your view: Brexit = good

Am I missing something here?

Nope sounds about right to me ... Although I would add in Welsh Irish and Scot nationalists as well see themselves out of EU ... after all it wasn't just England that voted

elantan

mollycat wrote: »

Elantan; I respectfully disagree.

I think it would be the opposite now that people would more likely realise there would be a big economic price to pay.

BTW it's OUR country too

https://brignews.com/2016/06/26/in-2014-i-voted-against-independence-brexit-has-changed-my-mind/


You sure about that ?

I keep seeing posts similar to this one of people telling their stories of moving from No to Yes ... quite a few ( thankfully) let the Yes voters know that they have no regrets on their 2014 vote of No ... I like that and have a great respect for that ... I have often argued with Yes voters on the subject ... I got sick of Yes voters giving excuses for people voting No ... I believe people voted No because that's what they wanted to, I get scunnered hearing people give them excuses... if you voted No in 2014 I respect that, I disagree with it ... but I respect it, I certainly wouldn't give a No voter excuses for voting no...it was their right and their choice... And yep I argue with Yes voters as well lol

ruggedtoast

I think Nationalism, and to a large extent patriotism, is stupid.

I'm no more proud of England than I am of a well run WH Smiths.

Its a country of 55 million people, the vast majority of whom I have never and will never meet, and over whose actions I have no control whatsoever.

The Brexit vote made me a bit ashamed of it for a while, but again I have no control over what English people think or what they do.

In my experience the bigger the patriot someone is the bigger the git they are too. And that goes for every country I have ever been to.

I can feel pride in human beings, who can achieve amazing things when they put their mind to it. I am not that bothered about which bit of rock they live on, or whether it has an imaginary border with my own.

CLAPTON

although all people are equal but different, there seems to be a collective quality that seems to create distinctive societies.
maybe that's what we call the culture of a society which isn't associated with the physical place but with the people collectively.

mwpt

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

I want the ability to strike our own trade deals, to write our own laws across the UK. I'm not an English nationalist. I'm very much a unionist.

Scottish nationalists want to become independent only to give that power away again (before they even get it back) to an institution in which they have far less representation as a proportion of the overall vote. Unless this possible 2nd indy ref is because of the EU vote is just a ruse, and they want out of both to be truly independent?

SNP = bad and Brexit = good are not mutually exclusive if you're for the Union but against the EU are they.

Your position makes no sense. You are unionist, but only your particular chosen union, and one of the countries inside that union is bad for wanting independence of that union (your favourite union) and joining up to another union (the one you dislike).

TrickyTree83

mwpt wrote: »

Your position makes no sense. You are unionist, but only your particular chosen union, and one of the countries inside that union is bad for wanting independence of that union (your favourite union) and joining up to another union (the one you dislike).

Why is that difficult to understand?

You're assuming one of the countries inside the Union wants independence. Just like you assumed you were on the majority side in the EU ref, just like you assume so many other things. At least when I say I consider myself British and don't want to break up the union it's clear that it's coming from an emotive standpoint. If it wasn't there would be less of a case for an Englishman to want to keep Scotland in the union. But however not the other way around, the structural deficit of £15bn per year, the loss of Barnett which is ~£24bn per year, the need to prop up the oil industry at the moment, the loss of democratic voice within an EU parliament compared to Westminster. Scotland does well out of the UK union and would be foolish to leave it.

The argument for independence really is a weak argument and just gains steam and traction from shouty Scottish nationalists and their sympathisers. The moment it happens you'll probably find a large proportion of Scottish people regretting it. But as with any Leave voters who have regret, tough, too late.

TrickyTree83

elantan wrote: »

https://brignews.com/2016/06/26/in-2014-i-voted-against-independence-brexit-has-changed-my-mind/


You sure about that ?

I keep seeing posts similar to this one of people telling their stories of moving from No to Yes ... quite a few ( thankfully) let the Yes voters know that they have no regrets on their 2014 vote of No ... I like that and have a great respect for that ... I have often argued with Yes voters on the subject ... I got sick of Yes voters giving excuses for people voting No ... I believe people voted No because that's what they wanted to, I get scunnered hearing people give them excuses... if you voted No in 2014 I respect that, I disagree with it ... but I respect it, I certainly wouldn't give a No voter excuses for voting no...it was their right and their choice... And yep I argue with Yes voters as well lol

A 6% swing in opinion is required. Based on an eligible vote of 4m people that'd be ~240,000 people to switch.

In the last 3 votes in Scotland the SNP have failed to make that materialise in every vote. Their share has remained the same but their voice increases with a lower turnout. Turnout in the indy ref was 84%. If the pattern repeats their core support and voice will be drowned out and they will absolutely need to overturn that 6% in order to win. That might be helped by the EU ref result but ultimately the argument for independence remains largly the same, except now the argument to use oil to supplement the Scottish treasury has disintegrated. If anything the independence position has grown worse since 2014.

TrickyTree83

elantan wrote: »

Did the suffragettes give up ? Did LGBT give up, did equal race campaigners give up ? Why would you expet a person that believes the people that are best to decide what's right for their country are the ones that have to live with the consequences to give up ?

Not quite the same.

The more referenda you have the more you'll de-stabilise your own economy and that of the UK. Thats definitely bad for your position since the argument becomes less and less compelling over time, especially if you're going to have a referendum every two years. It would have been sensible to build up support and only call it when you think you can win it. As a resident of the rest of the UK I'd be overjoyed if you had one more referendum on this issue for the next 100 years. Either vote to leave the union, spare us the cash and the messing about with this question over and over again. Or remain and lets hear none of this again for a substatial period of time - as Alex Salmmond said - a once in a lifetime vote.

TrickyTree83

elantan wrote: »

By your definition I'm not a nationalist then ... cheers

Er, no.

The SNP want to potentially have a vote to become independent to stay in the EU. Or have they now said they want to pull out of both?

If they don't want to pull out of both then what I said is true and that is what you would be voting for in any forthcoming referendum.

Tromking

ruggedtoast wrote: »

I think Nationalism, and to a large extent patriotism, is stupid.

I'm no more proud of England than I am of a well run WH Smiths.

Its a country of 55 million people, the vast majority of whom I have never and will never meet, and over whose actions I have no control whatsoever.

The Brexit vote made me a bit ashamed of it for a while, but again I have no control over what English people think or what they do.

In my experience the bigger the patriot someone is the bigger the git they are too. And that goes for every country I have ever been to.

I can feel pride in human beings, who can achieve amazing things when they put their mind to it. I am not that bothered about which bit of rock they live on, or whether it has an imaginary border with my own.

Nice bit of Leftist virtue signalling.
Good one.