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The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.
Comments
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TrickyTree83 wrote: »Why do they have to do it?
It seems stupid to trade a greater voice in a local parliament (Westminster) for a lesser voice in a distant parliament (Brussels/Strasbourg) as well as huge financial difficulty for the sake of saying you're independent.
If you're an ultra nationalist I can see why you might vote for it as independence trumps everything else - you just don't care. But if you're worried about your job, high taxes and putting food on the table the sensible thing is to continue as part of the Union.
I am the opposite of an ultra nationalist - but the UK is completely and utterly stuffed economically outside the EU and single market - so given the choice between staying in the UK or staying in the single market Scotland should choose the latter.“The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie – deliberate, contrived, and dishonest – but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic.
Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.”
-- President John F. Kennedy”0 -
TrickyTree83 wrote: »Why do they have to do it?
It seems stupid to trade a greater voice in a local parliament (Westminster) for a lesser voice in a distant parliament (Brussels/Strasbourg) as well as huge financial difficulty for the sake of saying you're independent.
If you're an ultra nationalist I can see why you might vote for it as independence trumps everything else - you just don't care. But if you're worried about your job, high taxes and putting food on the table the sensible thing is to continue as part of the Union.
Because like Hamish said. There is simply no question of Scotland being outside the EU. Personally I think its more of a political issue than an economic imperative and Westminster would effectively pay them off to stay, but the electorate just won't wear it.
Article 50 will be the final slap in the face and that will trigger another referendum.0 -
HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »I am the opposite of an ultra nationalist - but the UK is completely and utterly stuffed economically outside the EU and single market - so given the choice between staying in the UK or staying in the single market Scotland should choose the latter.
The problem with that outlook is that there's a chance we could remain in the single market, there's also a chance that the opposite could be true and that the EU is completely and utterly stuffed with Italian banks not on the brink but already over it being pulled back by the vague hope that the EU stumps up 44bn euros. German banks are also in deep trouble with the most exposed toxic debt globally (or so I read).
If the French exit, the Swedes, the Greeks, the Danes, the Dutch, etc...
By the time that happens we should have struck some trade deals with the rest of the world.
It's far from clear cut on the argument over the single market.
The UK leaving the EU has caused a massive storm of the brown stuff, both here and on the rest of the continent. I would think it would be important to consider that when choosing the destiny of your country. Not to mention the reports from the Polish about the EU's new plan:
http://www.thenews.pl/1/10/Artykul/258994,New-EU-superstate-plan%E2%80%99-by-France-Germany-report0 -
Staying in the EU is a red line for Scots. A very well publicised one.
Leave voters were voting for the breakup of the United Kingdom. If they somehow didn't know that then... Oh we're back to the idiots thing again.
I'd better keep quiet as I'm already on a yellow card for upsetting the id... er, them.0 -
ruggedtoast wrote: »Staying in the EU is a red line for Scots. A very well publicised one.
Leave voters were voting for the breakup of the United Kingdom. If they somehow didn't know that then... Oh we're back to the idiots thing again.
I'd better keep quiet as I'm already on a yellow card for upsetting the id... er, them.
Earlier on in this thread (at least I recall it was this thread) I went into the voter statistics. It turns out that only ~40% odd of the Scottish electorate actually voted to Remain, ~25% voting to leave, which leaves ~35% of the eligible vote.
Assuming all the Remain voters want Scottish independence it still requires ~11% out of the remaining ~35% assuming voter turnout for indy ref's remains high.
So at the moment we can only assume it's a red line for ~40% of the electorate, which is not a majority.0 -
TrickyTree83 wrote: »Earlier on in this thread (at least I recall it was this thread) I went into the voter statistics. It turns out that only ~40% odd of the Scottish electorate actually voted to Remain, ~25% voting to leave, which leaves ~35% of the eligible vote.
Assuming all the Remain voters want Scottish independence it still requires ~11% out of the remaining ~35% assuming voter turnout for indy ref's remains high.
So at the moment we can only assume it's a red line for ~40% of the electorate, which is not a majority.
After the referendum Sturgeon went on record as saying that pulling out of the EU would trigger a second referendum. The SNP then won by a landslide and she has been saying it ever since.
I think we can assume the Scots expect another referendum.0 -
ruggedtoast wrote: »After the referendum Sturgeon went on record as saying that pulling out of the EU would trigger a second referendum. The SNP then won by a landslide and she has been saying it ever since.
I think we can assume the Scots expect another referendum.
I agree that another referendum is on the the cards. There's no other way they could remain in the EU and that is the agenda Nicola Sturgeon is pursuing.
Regarding the Scottish parliamentary elections, the voter turnout for that was ~55%. So calling it a landslide - as the SNP do - is quite misleading. They achieved 46% of the ~55%.
The SNP core support is motivated and loud, much like the SNP itself. But I disagree with your point that 1) The SNP has a landslide government and 2) That Remaining in the EU is a red line for the Scottish people. Those two statements ignore the majority of the eligible vote, most of which turned out in the first independence referendum (84% turnout) which resulted in staying part of the union.0 -
HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »I am the opposite of an ultra nationalist - but the UK is completely and utterly stuffed economically outside the EU and single market - so given the choice between staying in the UK or staying in the single market Scotland should choose the latter.
Scotland doesn`t have that choice, attempts to join the EZ independently will be vetoed by other countries (Spain for example) even if they could get a referendum passed that allows us to leave the UK, which won`t happen now. The EZ will be well on the road to disintegration while the SNP bellow away about all their fantasy claptrap anyway.0 -
TrickyTree83 wrote: »I agree that another referendum is on the the cards. There's no other way they could remain in the EU and that is the agenda Nicola Sturgeon is pursuing.
Regarding the Scottish parliamentary elections, the voter turnout for that was ~55%. So calling it a landslide - as the SNP do - is quite misleading. They achieved 46% of the ~55%.
The SNP core support is motivated and loud, much like the SNP itself. But I disagree with your point that 1) The SNP has a landslide government and 2) That Remaining in the EU is a red line for the Scottish people. Those two statements ignore the majority of the eligible vote, most of which turned out in the first independence referendum (84% turnout) which resulted in staying part of the union.
People will see the Aberdeen slow down and just vote to stay in the safety of a larger union,..... as they did last time, with oil at bubble price levels. Can`t see people voting for an independent Scotland in WORSE economic times than the last time they didn`t vote for it?0
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