The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.

TrickyTree83

IveSeenTheLight wrote: »

I'm not in a position to answer, sorry.

However if the "court / bribe" as you put it attracts inward investment and growth opportunities at a time when we also hear that Background: Automation poses a high risk to 1.2m Scottish jobs, report says, then surely that is a positive thing.

I just don;t understand why you flip flopped from it being positive to negative just because it was pointed out that the Scottish Government (SNP) help to achieve that inward investment

Helping achieve investment is a good thing, but it's scant conciliation compared to the circa £10bn Chinese investment the SNP promised and didn't deliver.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15190603.SNP_Economy_Secretary_apologises_over_sham___10bn_China_deal/

Even a broken clock is correct twice a day.

IveSeenTheLight

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

You need to stop pinning your hopes on the SNP being the largest party as some kind of justification for independence being the will of every Scottish voter that takes part in the general election on June 8th. It's not.

I'm not pinning hopes, but if the largest party stands on a manifesto that an Independence Referendum should be granted as a result of the significant change from the previous referendum, then surely that should be argued as the vague 'public consent' the Conservatives have just put in their manifesto.

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Being the largest party in Scotland does not mean that they can drive policy in Westminster either, the opposite, it's a completely wasted vote for the SNP in the UK general election.

Here we disagree again.
Being the largest party in Scotland means that they should drive policy and the will of the electorate.
Its therefore not a wasted vote, but the only vote that counts to stand up against Conservative policies

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

You don't like that this general election is about independence in Scotland, well I propose that the chickens have come home to roost on this one. The SNP constantly going on about independence as a solution (despite having no answers when it comes to the detail) have made Scotland into a one issue region. How awful for the people who live there. So now that a unionist party has taken the gloves off and is going for the jugular, and gaining traction, you don't like it. So now (I think unanimously amongst indy posters on this thread) this particular vote is not indicative of feeling toward independence despite every other damn vote we've had since the 00's according to nationalists has been.

A GE should not be about Independence as the whole of the UK does not vote on it.
I wonder what the outcome would be if a Westminster based party had it in their manifesto to grant Independence.
would the electorate in the rUK vote for it.

It does then go back to the point, if Scotland is such a bad egg, why do the Unionists want to hold on to it?

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

You don't get to do that. Your people set the rules of the game and you don't like that you're going to be beaten at it. Like taking your ball home because you're losing, you're looking for a way out but there isn't one to be had.

Don't get what? Don't like what?
I'm confident that the SNP will return as the major party in Scotland

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

June 8th is a defacto referendum on having another independence referendum, Sturgeon has been outmanoeuvred in spectacular fashion.

What will TM's stance be on Section 30 should the SNP return as the major party in Scotland?

Will she try to further procrastinate the decision to allow IndyRef2 because she knows she cannot say no. (Ok she can but understands the consequences of doing so)

The Tory pledge on requiring "public consent" is a desperate attempt to try and get a mandate on June the 09th to say no, but the reality will not be so.

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

You need to stop pinning your hopes on the SNP being the largest party as some kind of justification for independence being the will of every Scottish voter that takes part in the general election on June 8th. It's not.

Being the largest party in Scotland does not mean that they can drive policy in Westminster either, the opposite, it's a completely wasted vote for the SNP in the UK general election.

You don't like that this general election is about independence in Scotland, well I propose that the chickens have come home to roost on this one. The SNP constantly going on about independence as a solution (despite having no answers when it comes to the detail) have made Scotland into a one issue region. How awful for the people who live there. So now that a unionist party has taken the gloves off and is going for the jugular, and gaining traction, you don't like it. So now (I think unanimously amongst indy posters on this thread) this particular vote is not indicative of feeling toward independence despite every other damn vote we've had since the 00's according to nationalists has been.

You don't get to do that. Your people set the rules of the game and you don't like that you're going to be beaten at it. Like taking your ball home because you're losing, you're looking for a way out but there isn't one to be had. June 8th is a defacto referendum on having another independence referendum, Sturgeon has been outmanoeuvred in spectacular fashion.

The Scottish Parliament has already decided on a second independence ref. We've been through all this before, this is now well past party politics and into the realms one parliament denying the democratic legitimacy of another. Never ends well.

Nothing the SNP win or do not win will ever be good enough to demonstrate anything in terms of public consent. Not a majority of pro-indy MSP's in Holyrood, a majority of MP's a Westminster nor local level councils. There will never be any vote share big enough, nor any polling good enough... because at the end of the day, May and the Tories are too terrified of losing the so called basket case Scotland and what it means for the rUK.

Westminster set the rules of the game last time round, with Salmond on 6 MP's and 19.9% of the vote share in Scotland and he was granted a section 30 in the basis of a majority of Scottish votes in the Scottish Parliament indicating their wishes for a Scottish referendum. It's May moving the goalposts now Tricky. Sturgeon will stalemate by moving them back.. and that's where we'll be after June 8th.

IveSeenTheLight

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Helping achieve investment is a good thing, but it's scant conciliation compared to the circa £10bn Chinese investment the SNP promised and didn't deliver.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15190603.SNP_Economy_Secretary_apologises_over_sham___10bn_China_deal/

Even a broken clock is correct twice a day.

Looks like more than just the SNP was duped by Sinfortone

What has happened to a £2bn Chinese backed project that promised to create thousands of new jobs in Wales?

SinoFortone aims to be household name in UK

SinoFortone may not yet be household name in the UK, but the company is committing billions of pounds of investment in crucial UK infrastructure projects with a clear strategy of using the foothold to grab opportunities in Europe and along the route of China's Belt and Road Initiative.

SinoFortone first made a name for itself in the UK during President Xi Jinping's 2015 state visit by announcing an investment of 2 billion ($2.5 billion; 2.3 billion euros) in two biomass power stations in Wales, and 100 million in London's new Paramount entertainment park.

Revealed: failed deals of Chinese wonderboy

He claimed to have committed billions of pounds to green energy, infrastructure and tourism projects ranging from Crossrail 2 to a Paramount theme park in Kent.

But after more than two years and numerous press announcements, Peter Zhang’s only British asset is a £2m pub in the Chilterns.

Indeed, it turns out they only have one asset, a pub where Chinese firm buys pub where David Cameron and Xi Jinping enjoyed a pint

TrickyTree83

IveSeenTheLight wrote: »

I'm not pinning hopes, but if the largest party stands on a manifesto that an Independence Referendum should be granted as a result of the significant change from the previous referendum, then surely that should be argued as the vague 'public consent' the Conservatives have just put in their manifesto.



Here we disagree again.
Being the largest party in Scotland means that they should drive policy and the will of the electorate.
Its therefore not a wasted vote, but the only vote that counts to stand up against Conservative policies



A GE should not be about Independence as the whole of the UK does not vote on it.
I wonder what the outcome would be if a Westminster based party had it in their manifesto to grant Independence.
would the electorate in the rUK vote for it.

It does then go back to the point, if Scotland is such a bad egg, why do the Unionists want to hold on to it?



Don't get what? Don't like what?
I'm confident that the SNP will return as the major party in Scotland



What will TM's stance be on Section 30 should the SNP return as the major party in Scotland?

Will she try to further procrastinate the decision to allow IndyRef2 because she knows she cannot say no. (Ok she can but understands the consequences of doing so)

The Tory pledge on requiring "public consent" is a desperate attempt to try and get a mandate on June the 09th to say no, but the reality will not be so.

I've already said, it doesn't matter who is the largest party, it matters about the vote share when talking about the independence topic.

Labour, Conservative, Lib Dem and others who stand against independence with the SNP, Greens and some others too standing for independence. It's quite clear to the electorate in Scotland, the rest of the UK, the media and Westminster where the battle lines are.

TrickyTree83

IveSeenTheLight wrote: »

Looks like more than just the SNP was duped by Sinfortone

What has happened to a £2bn Chinese backed project that promised to create thousands of new jobs in Wales?

SinoFortone aims to be household name in UK


Revealed: failed deals of Chinese wonderboy


Indeed, it turns out they only have one asset, a pub where Chinese firm buys pub where David Cameron and Xi Jinping enjoyed a pint

As if by some kind of magic quoting other examples lessens the abject failure of Nicola Sturgeon putting her name to an agreement without looking into the background of the deal.

A_Medium_Size_Jock

IveSeenTheLight wrote: »

I just don;t understand why you flip flopped from it being positive to negative just because it was pointed out that the Scottish Government (SNP) help to achieve that inward investment

Is it really so easy to puzzle you?

Try reading my original post again.
Take your time and digest what I posted.
See if it sinks in.
For once.
Though as not much else seems to I won't hold out much hope.

.string.

For your pleasure and enjoyment, here is a part of the Tory Manifesto explaining some policies regarding Scotland.

Conservative_Manifesto wrote:

Scotland The Scottish Parliament has become the most powerful parliament of its kind in the world, with extensive powers over taxation and welfare. It was the Conservative and Unionist Party that delivered the 2012 and 2016 Scotland Acts, and only the Conservative and Unionist Party can deliver further powers and the best possible deal for Scotland as we leave the European Union. The United Kingdom has voted to leave the European Union but some would disrupt our attempts to get the best deal for Scotland and the United Kingdom with calls for a divisive referendum that the people of Scotland do not want. We have been very clear that now is not the time for another referendum on independence. In order for a referendum to be fair, legal and decisive, it cannot take place until the Brexit process has played out and it should not take place unless there is public consent for it to happen. This is a time to pull together, not apart. Scotland’s economic growth has lagged behind the rest of the United Kingdom in recent years. The Scottish Government has the tools to drive economic growth in Scotland but we take seriously our duty to secure prosperity for the whole of the United Kingdom.

We will, therefore, take concerted action to help secure the long-term sustainability of the Scottish economy. Scotland and Scottish industries will be central to our industrial strategy. We will continue our investment in capital and infrastructure projects in Scotland. Building on the City and Growth deals we have signed across Scotland, we will bring forward a Borderlands Growth Deal, including all councils on both sides of the border, to help secure prosperity in southern Scotland. We will protect the interests of Scottish farmers and fishermen as we design our new UK farming and fisheries policy. And as we develop our new trade policies, we will pay particular attention to using the United Kingdom’s muscle to promote Scottish exports around the world.

Note that May has not said no to a Referendum but stated that it should take place only when "the Brexit process has played out" and when there is "public consent for it". Not a mile away from what I wrote a few posts back.

So that's it then, we can now wait and see what Sturgeon's imagination comes up with.

It is worth noting that there is much in those sentences pointing to special efforts to improve Scotland's lot with special attention to the border area and future trade deals. The inference is clear which is that when Brexit is played out, there will be several trade goodies lined up for Scotland derived from its continued inclusion in our United Kingdom. Separation into the wilderness of not belonging to any trade block will become even !ess attractive.

I like it, as no doubt will the SNP, seeing all this TLC being shown to my fellow countrymen and women in Scotland.

This is all part of the mandate that May seeks in the GE.

IveSeenTheLight

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

I've already said, it doesn't matter who is the largest party, it matters about the vote share when talking about the independence topic.

Labour, Conservative, Lib Dem and others who stand against independence with the SNP, Greens and some others too standing for independence. It's quite clear to the electorate in Scotland, the rest of the UK, the media and Westminster where the battle lines are.

By that logic, we'd never get a government.
Will the Conservatives get over 50% of the popular vote?

Shakethedisease

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

I've already said, it doesn't matter who is the largest party, it matters about the vote share when talking about the independence topic.

Labour, Conservative, Lib Dem and others who stand against independence with the SNP, Greens and some others too standing for independence. It's quite clear to the electorate in Scotland, the rest of the UK, the media and Westminster where the battle lines are.

Ms May didn't say anything about vote share in this GE in her manifesto. Where are you getting this idea from ?

Blimey and you talk at pro-indy posters here pinning hopes on smoke and mirrors. Corbyn's catching up a bit isn't he ? Labour now being fully on board with a hard Brexit anyway and things shifting to domestic policies. I do hope this GE doesn't prove a bit pointless for May after all the hype. :cool: