SOA - please help!! I want to start today!

m4rc

I think you have all the 'money saving' advice you need and could do this stuff with ease and energy.

Now your challenge is your husband.

I'm going to be honest here, my wife was similar to your husband in lots of ways. I don't really talk about the details but I'll share some as it may help.

So my wife is a little older than me, I'm early 40's. I had always worked, had good jobs had my own businesses, then I had some health issues so had to take it easier. My wife had always dreamed of going to uni to train for her dream job, so a few years later I said lets swap lives. I became the stay at home dad, cleaning and cooking, littlest to nursery, but mostly as full time carer to our two sons. Things rolled along, we had debts, actually my wife had most really, and we just sort of survived. Because of the children having additional needs and my wife working the money we were bringing in was and still is pretty significant. However we didn't own our home (still don't) and seemed to never have any money.

I only really had my carers allowance in my account (around £60 a week) and my wife had all the rest. If I asked about money it was a chore, she didn't want to talk about it, it didn't matter.

One day while she was at work I went through everything. Actually that's a lie, it didn't take a day, it took a month. Thousands of pages of stuff, hundreds of unopened letters. It was horrible.

I made a spreadsheet that I use to this day, a new page each month, days of month along top, then the items down the side. Top half income, Inge came in on different days. Totalled at bottom of that section for each day.

Then al the outgoings, every single thing. I kind of knew what we spent on each thing, so I rounded it up a little, guessed if I didn't know, averaged stuff out. Shopping each week, fuel for cars, treats, takeaways, pocket money, extras for weekends, sweets, school lunches, iTunes purchases, newspapers, flipping everything.

Then I totalled that section per day. I knew what was in all our many bank accounts so added that up, that total become the starting point. each day I had the balance from day before, add in money coming in, take off money going out, gives me a daily balance. I spent weeks on this spreadsheet, and I have honestly spent hundreds of hours on it since. Every single day even now I spend maybe 10-15 mins on the spreadsheet checking what's gone out, what's due in, any future expenses. Plotting ahead I could see when we would be overdrawn and by how much to the penny, O could see that if we made that payment a day later we could afford that on time, we could spend a tenner less here to afford that.

I need to clarify so ring, I'm talking of tiny amounts but our household income is Above average, but it still matters, if you spend more than you earn the things costing a pound really make a difference.

So then I knew it all, it was a horrible depressing picture. We would never own our own house, we would never do the things we dream of. What point is there?

My wife didn't want to talk about it. How dare I look at bank statements and open letters addressed to her. We had many fights, I often had to leave the house for a few hours so we could clear the air a bit.

So I did it myself, slowly. Each line of the outgoings section, sorted in date order (told you I was really sad!) I took just one item at a time. I researched the market (energy, mobiles, broadband, insurance, food shops etc) and rang people, emailed people, used comparison sites, and I started to swap suppliers. I found so many things we didn't need, we had more mobile lines than people, we had insurances for dead pets, we had magazine subscriptions for things we no longer enjoyed where the magazines were going to old addresses, it was crazy.

I saved a few pounds here, I saved a lot of money there. When we didn't dip into the overdraft one month my wife wanted to talk about it, so I explained what I had been doing. I got a bit excited and spouted out how I had done his and that, she had a go at me for daring to cancel things without asking her.....

Slowly, very slowly, she came round to some of the changes, then more. I did stuff anyway, made the changes and deep down she knew. I stopped spending, as in I spent nothing, not a bar of chocolate, a paper, nothing. She noticed. But we had a little more money, debts were going slowly. It took time.

Then we had to move, the landlord came round and told us he was selling, we had 3 monhs. We didn't know what to do, no way could we afford to move. Only, we could. I showed her how, if we moved this, spent less on that and didn't buy that, we could do it that month. We would need to hire a small van and beg friends to help, but it could work. And it did. Not only that but we moved to a bigger house costing more in a nicer area, sounds mad doesn't it, trying to save and spending more? Only this house had brand new double glazing, it was warm, no leaks, heating worked well, water was a combo boiler so rather than a tank on the same heating circuit meaning to have hot water you had to have heating we could have hot water as we needed it. I reckoned on us actually paying about the same net amounts, and I was riht. And we were happier. Life was looking better.

I was still annoying, I still changed things, I made us shop in Aldi and liddl rather than sainsburys, we went from having a few takeaways a week to one, and then one a month, we got better at this stuff.

As debts got paid off we had more free money, so we could have a holiday. Just in the uk, rent a big cottage, our son would be OK as long as he had his own room and all his stuff. He wasn't just ok, he had the best holiday ever, and he was so chilled out, so relaxed. He can't talk, he needs 1to1 support all the time, he can't feed himself, he gets so depressed and anxious he has to have a lot of medication to keep him safe and calm.

We got home both a little depressed, we always wanted to live there (south west of England) and thought we really should plan for moving in next 4-6 years.

I looked at budgets, house prices were loads more (just renting) but I reckoned we could do it sooner, just schools and my wife's work really. She went to a careers fair and the area we loved were represented, she talked to them, they interviewed her there and then and offered her a job, open for 6 months. The drive back was quiet, no way could we move in 6 months, oh well, they may wel make another offer later.

The next day the spreadsheet got a hammering. I made a duplicate and made lots of huge assumptions, what if we didn't shop now for a month, we could live on what's in the larder surely, what if we didn't have another takeaway his year, what if what if.... We had a little saved, but the move would be costly, we would need a removal company as its too complicated ourselves, layout we can pack. I went to an online site that does removal quotes, it came back with 3 for around 3.5k. Urgh, no thanks.... Not going to happen. Then I got a phone call from a lady. 'We have been asked to quote you for a house move'. I said oh it's one really a stab in the dark, and wouldn't be for 6 months to a year. She insists don coming round the next day. She looked round, we talked about moving 250 miles away, that we would pack but my son's room needed to be packed as we left, and taken off first so it could be set up. I said I can't afford your prices so it's pointless, and it's not until new year anyway.. This was early July. She said 'we can do this for £950 including all packing equipment'. I was so shocked I vaguely remember signing something!

My wife came home and I told her we could do this, but we may struggle to find the right house. We needed a big house, downstairs bedroom for son with ensuite, easy access big gardens, must allow dogs, etc etc. I emailed letting agents, some said no chance, some said come back when you are going to move in say 3 months. Looking on property websites we found nothing, except one that looked a bit close to the road and not suitable. Eventually we thought we could look, no harm in it, so we all got in the car and made the 500 mile round trip. It was perfect. It wasn't near a road, it was just a small track on the farm it was situated on. Every box ticked, except they couldn't and wouldn't hold it, if we wanted it we needed to move in the next month. It was July remember.

We had a strange trip home, we could smell our dreams, but they were out of reach still.

We had a long chat that night, I asked my wife if she trusted me, how much better is our financial situation now, can you just let me 100% manage all the money. She agreed, so I made an offer on the rented property, we were outbid believe it or not! That doesn't happen on rental properties! It happened. I offered higher, then I went back and said I'm not playing games, here is what we can and will pay, if we don't have an answer by 5pm though consider it withdrawn. Risky. But it worked.

A few more trips down, the removal company had a confirmed date, and 7 weeks after returning from our holiday and after some horrible packing, we were living in the most gorgeous cottage in the middle of nowhere. We were paying more rent, but no water as we have a well, we now had an oil tank that was new to me, and I needed to buy logs.

Fast forward to today, we are happier than we have ever been as we had what we thought we couldn't have, and the kids are happy. We spend less than we ever did, we haven't had a single takeaway, here are no shops to spend silly money in without driving for half hour, financially things are really good. When we want a day out we have gorgeous beaches and stunning countryside, not so great what the tourists visit but hey!

It took time, I still have to budget carefully, every day I look through everything due to go in and out and move things around, but we are no longer in debt, and we can afford to do things we always wanted but had no hope of doing. Those dream holidays for the kids are happening - you can say I'm selfless for letting them go without me but I can't stand Disney, far too happy and shiny for me! I say my wife, but we are not yet married, never been able to afford it, but next year it's happening, and we won't go into debt doing it, and it's in the countryside, just as my good lady always dreamed of but had no idea how to make happen. We don't waste money, we can have treats though we actually don't want to. We still shop at Liddl, Aldi when it opens about 20 miles away, and we shop at asda too. We have a huge garden the kids love, and we spend less time on the Internet as at best the connection is just under 1meg!

I'm sorry if this looks like gloating. It genuinely isn't, I wanted to show that even though a partner isn't on board you can still make it happen.

Let him keep the hire care, heck he's spent 24k on it, he may as well keep it until he has paid off ALL of the finance for them, maybe they will let him keep it eh! We both know that won't happen, but does he realise he's spent 24k on something he has to give back?

He is probably really hacked off with it all, and you being excited about it and wanting to change everything won't have gone down well. Of course he doesn't want to clean, so don't make him, but why get a cleaner in if you are happy to do it? Sure you can get a job, but I would bet if you changed nothing and got a job you would soon be spending all of that money too. You can work harder and harder, or work less and spend smarter. Surely your husband would rather you were all happier and had time together?

His 20k he owes - that could be paid off easily, if you changed everything you had suggested already you could have that paid, be debt free and saving for your future. You can work if you want, maybe you should, but it has to be YOUR choice surely?

A real horrible big question - what happens if you do nothing, your new work works out but you guys spend that too, and in 2 years your husbands contract ends and he has no more work? You mentioned bankruptcy, does he really think that's the only option?

You guys could be in a situation where he could earn half or even less of his current income and you don't have to change your lifestyle further, but you need to make changes now for that to be the case.

I used to have a business supplying contractors to one of the big American financial institutions. I supplied them wih guys who could do stuff to their IT systems that nobody else was trained to do, there was this one other company, we shared the work really. I was loving it, all I did was collect the money and pay the contractors taking my cut, they didn't want to cut out the middleman, they liked having me there to agree contractors and pay them on time. He is company was one of the biggest, it was all perfect. What could possibly go wrong! When he bank hit the headlines I think I cried for the rest of the day, somebody had butchered my cash cow and I didn't even get offered any steak.

Things change, anyone who thinks there job is 100% secure is probably wearing blinkers (yes I know there are a few, but not as many as we used to think).

Lastly, try the angle that worked for me - what about our children's futures? Uni costs money, first homes cost money, heck we don't even have our own! Pensions cost money, we want to be ok when we can't work and be there for the kids, and we want to be able to leave them something, we want to be able to see them through uni.

For now make changes he maybe can't see or won't notice. Ask him if the cleaner and car are the big issues, if they are keep them, but change other stuff, but doing nothing doesn't seem to be an option, I think you guys are on a ticking time bomb. I also wonder about your husbands mental health, and if he's simply working hard to ignore everything else, making changes means he has to think about stuff, consider things, it's a distraction from not being distracted. As someone who has suffered with my mental health that's so easy to do, hopefully if I put my hands on my ears close my eyes and go lalalalalala it will all go away.

In the end this is for you two to negotiate, I just wanted to show you that you can do things still and sometimes people do come round. It's not easy, at some points I wondered if we had a future together, but I stuck at it, giving in and letting us carry on wasting money was never an option. My current plan is to have enough saved for a deposit for our dream home by 2022, I am planning on starting a business I have been quietly plotting next year, it's a lifestyle business I can run from some converted buildings the farmer is going to help me with, and if it works as I plan it will mean we have an even better future. If not it means we still get to buy a house, but maybe with less land and chimneys.

I think it's really important you don't push your husband too hard right now or he may break, go gently, maybe reverse psychology, don't mention the car or cleaner, if he says so what about the car say don't worry about it you wanted to keep,it, and leave it at that. As a man I couldn't leave it, and if you didn't talk about it I would need to know why, there's no way he will have forgotten, he just hopes the money fairies may come and fix it all and let him keep things as they are too, and we all know they don't exist.

I'm so sorry for hijacking your thread with my ridiculously long posts, I hope I haven't offended, if I have please say, I won't mind and I can just get them deleted. I enjoy replying as you seem so receptive and want to make it happen, it's always nice helping someone who wants to be helped, and in many ways our situations are very similar so I have a lot of sympathy.


Good luck.

questionss

Great post from m4rc!
Just one other thought - I don't know what institutions your DH Works in but with those rates there's a high chance it's financial sector & am contracts after a bankruptcy would be harder to come by, I know DH had to declare any bankruptcy or adverse credit along with conflict of interests etc on the background checks for his last few contracts.

meer53

Looking from the outside, i would use shock tactics on your OH. Write everything down, all debts, income, expenditure and tell him to come up with a plan which will work. I think his plan for you to find work whilst also being Mum to 5 young children is selfish.

Stepchange would be able to give you some advice, maybe your OH would take it onboard if it came from someone like them ?

nkkingston

Forward_thinking wrote: »

yes, he's worried although he hides it. Two years ago he wasn't sleeping for a few weeks. He was up in the night pacing the floors and I didn't recognise him. He had no work (contract) and we were going down by £7k every month. We were about to leave the house/move etc and then he got a new contract. And it all went away. But it didn't - just away mentally. If his current contract finishes we would have to probably go bankrupt. Game over. He knows we are in a mess, has accepted we would never be able to buy (early 40s) and says he hopes he dies first : (( He has taken out life insurance to cover me only - says he can't afford to take it out for himself. It's a mess. He also owes about £20k to his company in the next two years due to juggling everything and has accepted he might have to go to jail. I don't take that seriously but I don't really have knowledge of that side of things. I only know about the day to day running of expenses, not his company side of things.

I'm determined to get us out of this mess. I have been naive and just told myself if he's not worried then it must not be as catastrophic as it seems. But I think he is hiding it and not wanting to address it. He used to be so happy and is certainly not the laid back chap he was a few years ago.

(Glad I chose to use this space for me - won't write anything against him - he's great. But it does help to be able to write it down - and get wonderful comments which really help at the same time).

Determined to get rid of that hire car in the next week or so. Watch this space!!!

To be honest, I'm not sure DH's problem is just head in the sand. Even if he feels okay now, it sounds like that was a very nasty period of stress for him, and it's possible that he's scared of bringing it back on if he's forced to confront the same issues again. Let him know you've seen a change in his moods since then, and you're worried about him. Ask him how he's feeling, how thinking about money makes him feel, and how you can help with that. If he's not mentally prepared to deal with making changes, is he willing to let you take more of the financial responsibilities over? Or does he need to feel in control of the finances to feel safer? In which case, ask him for advice on things to save. Make a five year plan together, and a ten year plan. Budget time, not just money.

Also, think about getting back to work. Is this just procrastination? Are you letting the little wins of saving money distract you from your real goal, because of the pressure being a wage earner will put on you as well? You've given yourself spending goals, give yourself earning goals.

At the end of the day, there's no point one partner locking the front door every day if the other leaves the back door swinging in the breeze. You have to be partners in this.

m4rc

nkkingston wrote: »

To be honest, I'm not sure DH's problem is just head in the sand. Even if he feels okay now, it sounds like that was a very nasty period of stress for him, and it's possible that he's scared of bringing it back on if he's forced to confront the same issues again. Let him know you've seen a change in his moods since then, and you're worried about him. Ask him how he's feeling, how thinking about money makes him feel, and how you can help with that. If he's not mentally prepared to deal with making changes, is he willing to let you take more of the financial responsibilities over? Or does he need to feel in control of the finances to feel safer? In which case, ask him for advice on things to save. Make a five year plan together, and a ten year plan. Budget time, not just money.

Also, think about getting back to work. Is this just procrastination? Are you letting the little wins of saving money distract you from your real goal, because of the pressure being a wage earner will put on you as well? You've given yourself spending goals, give yourself earning goals.

At the end of the day, there's no point one partner locking the front door every day if the other leaves the back door swinging in the breeze. You have to be partners in this.

Great advice

Also if you are working and save money too you will clear debts in no time and get everything you want, you guys would have a great combined income, a deposit saved quickly and can look to buy your own home if ats what you both want.

meer53

m4rc wrote: »

Great advice

Also if you are working and save money too you will clear debts in no time and get everything you want, you guys would have a great combined income, a deposit saved quickly and can look to buy your own home if ats what you both want.

I think if the OP does find work her OH will think everything is OK and they can carry on as before. Plus he can keep his precious hire car. The OP doesn't need to work, they need to assess their lifestyle and their spending, Trying to set up a new business, organising 5 children, having huge financial problems and an OH with his head in the sand isn't something many people could manage. It's not fair on the OP.

If the OP can manage it all, i take my hat off to her. But she shouldn't have to do it.

crazy_cat_lady

Fantastic post m4rc.

Forward_thinking

Just in the middle of witching hour. Sneeked a peep. What an amazing bunch of people you are!!!! I started a thread on mumsnet and got absolutely HAMMERED!!!!! Please don't go and try and find it - it was truly horrible and people were so nasty. This is a breath of fresh air. THANK YOU!!! I actually feel I am not alone which is crazy as you are strangers. And M4rc - you are truly amazing. Your posts are so wonderfully written and just so helpful. Thank you..really.....thank you!!!!!! Back in a couple of hours to read the day's messages word for word and take on board all the advice.

Forward_thinking

By the way.....lots of friends are asking where I am on facebook - I haven't been on it since I started my first thread. This is far more addictive - getting my life back in control.

getmore4less

Might be worth analysing the time line that got you to having a hire car for 40 months, this seems to go back to before this job and the gap in work back to the high paid contract.

What triggered getting one in the first place, what was the plan at the time(was it a temp solution) what were the finances like then that excluded owning or leasing which is cheaper than hire.

it won't change the past but might help with the transition needed now.
(no need to share just it might help your understanding)

The other thing I can't get my head round is OH is obviously been a good earner for a few years clearly enough to consider owning but that seems to have bypassed the long term planning while producing the family.
Has there been some underlying reluctance to commit to a mortgage.

Even now this is not a never going to happen you just need to both want it, income potential is very good and there are plenty of family homes that are affordable within reach of London(assuming that is needed for OH job) with good schools for the kids as they grow up.

(Mumsnet never heard anything good about the place.)