If we vote for Brexit what happens

kabayiri

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

You don't know how many to build though.
..

You could build hundreds of thousands more homes in London/SE and they will fill them.

The richer, more mature folk who get fed up with overcrowding there will do what they usually do : move out to the nicer bit of the regions for a bigger home with a garden and some fresh air.

There is no point in building loads of new homes in Redcar or Fleetwood or Port Talbot, space or not.

Londoners have to decide : homes or NIMBYism. It's a choice.

Tromking

mayonnaise wrote: »

Watched QT afterwards and was once more shocked at the Beeb's partiality, 3 leavers, 1 remainer and a comedian.
I'll be writing a strongly worded letter to the Director General.

Yes, lets have more of the likes Eagle and Izzard making the case for Remain. They were great if you want out.:)

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

You don't know how many to build though.

Oh for heavens sakes, we know how many we need to build and we know where the areas of demand are, we just don't do it because of planning restrictions, mortgage rationing and rampant NIMBYism.

It's nonsense on stilts to suggest that British politicians and local governments are completely incapable of noting where the areas of high demand are and providing infrastructure and housing accordingly.

Considering that under Dave's negotiation (if it's ratified) EU migrants can't claim some benefits for a period of time. But if they displace British workers in the jobs market, those British people CAN claim. So the increase in the tax take would be offset by the increase in the welfare budget.

But they're NOT displacing British workers.

UK unemployment is below historical averages, we have record high employment, and we're on the cusp of a huge demographic bulge of people starting to retire and leave the workforce.

The demand for labour over the next 30 years will be insatiable and no matter how much you may dislike this fact we have not bred enough replacement workers for decades now - if the few remaining UK unemployed don't want to get off their rear ends and move to where the jobs are then someone has to fill that gap - and that someone is EU migrants.

Filo25

Clapton is that 10k gross rather than net immigration per year you are going to have in your new utopia?

CLAPTON

Filo25 wrote: »

Clapton is that 10k gross rather than net immigration per year you are going to have in your new utopia?

I'm not looking for a new utopia
-simply that people of the UK especially in the SE can live in a family sized house
-have decent access to NHS, schools, dentists etc
-have access to decent transports
-can vote for a parliament than can make our own laws
-that we preserve our wonderful lovely places
- that we get richer rather than poorer

which of these do you consider is utopian?
which don't you want?

Filo25

Actually what I wanted to know was whether you wanted net or gross immigration to be within your 10k a year hard cap?

Filo25

CLAPTON wrote: »

I'm not looking for a new utopia
-simply that people of the UK especially in the SE can live in a family sized house
-have decent access to NHS, schools, dentists etc
-have access to decent transports
-can vote for a parliament than can make our own laws
-that we preserve our wonderful lovely places
- that we get richer rather than poorer

which of these do you consider is utopian?
which don't you want?

It really is all immigration for you isn't it Clapton.

Can I just say on some of these points, I actually live in London, and if I need to see a GP for an urgent appointment I can't remember the last time I couldn't see them on the same day, I had a dentist who I could pretty much always see within a day or 2 at most if it was urgent rather than a routine checkup.

Assuming there aren't reliability issues on the service I can also get to work just fine on public transport each day.

I also get to vote for both the UK government and European parliament.

Last time I checked we hadn't concreted over London's wonderful parks to build housing for immigrants either, so we seem to be doing ok on that front as well, but maybe I missed it.

It just gets boring reading the same rubbish time after time, about how immigrants are to blame for everything wrong with the UK, yes there are issues connected with immigration, but spouting nonsense about how they bring no benefit to the country at all does yourself or the Brexit argument no favours at all.

TrickyTree83

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Oh for heavens sakes, we know how many we need to build and we know where the areas of demand are, we just don't do it because of planning restrictions, mortgage rationing and rampant NIMBYism.

You still haven't answered if you would be happy to accept a vast increase in the current net migration figures, since as a member of the EU we're bound by the free movement of people. If some people believe we should leave because of "rampant NIMBYism" then they have a right to feel that way and to exercise their wishes democratically. You're just going to have to put up with that I'm afraid.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

It's nonsense on stilts to suggest that British politicians and local governments are completely incapable of noting where the areas of high demand are and providing infrastructure and housing accordingly.

It's reactionary, not planned. Is there only an issue once class size to teacher ratios reach 35:1 or more? Why are we letting it get to that stage first? Because we cannot build quickly enough, fund quickly enough, plan quickly enough when there is uncontrolled immigration.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

But they're NOT displacing British workers.

UK unemployment is below historical averages, we have record high employment, and we're on the cusp of a huge demographic bulge of people starting to retire and leave the workforce.

The demand for labour over the next 30 years will be insatiable and no matter how much you may dislike this fact we have not bred enough replacement workers for decades now - if the few remaining UK unemployed don't want to get off their rear ends and move to where the jobs are then someone has to fill that gap - and that someone is EU migrants.

Instead of replacing them with uncontrolled numbers of EU migrants we should be making it so that it's not tortuously expensive to have children of our own. Make it so that the citizens of the UK can afford a family home, they can afford more than one child and not rely on the state for help to do so. And also allow in the number of migrants we need/can plan for in a controlled and sensible manner. Where is the problem? I'm not saying "NO MIGRANTS! KICK 'EM OUT!", I've gone on record on here saying that if it came to it I'd happily accept EEA membership as I believe it to be some form of happy medium, which of course comes with the free movement of people. Other issues are higher up my Leave agenda.

I'm just trying to help you to see that GDP is not the be all and end all. I don't know your personal circumstances, but from mine I can see exactly what some people supporting Leave are saying and it is indeed true, despite the protestations of those supporting Remain. It may be "rampant NIMBYism", but that's the view of some of the people you share this island with.

Filo25

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

You still haven't answered if you would be happy to accept a vast increase in the current net migration figures, since as a member of the EU we're bound by the free movement of people. If some people believe we should leave because of "rampant NIMBYism" then they have a right to feel that way and to exercise their wishes democratically. You're just going to have to put up with that I'm afraid.



It's reactionary, not planned. Is there only an issue once class size to teacher ratios reach 35:1 or more? Why are we letting it get to that stage first? Because we cannot build quickly enough, fund quickly enough, plan quickly enough when there is uncontrolled immigration.



Instead of replacing them with uncontrolled numbers of EU migrants we should be making it so that it's not tortuously expensive to have children of our own. Make it so that the citizens of the UK can afford a family home, they can afford more than one child and not rely on the state for help to do so. And also allow in the number of migrants we need/can plan for in a controlled and sensible manner. Where is the problem? I'm not saying "NO MIGRANTS! KICK 'EM OUT!", I've gone on record on here saying that if it came to it I'd happily accept EEA membership as I believe it to be some form of happy medium, which of course comes with the free movement of people. Other issues are higher up my Leave agenda.

I'm just trying to help you to see that GDP is not the be all and end all. I don't know your personal circumstances, but from mine I can see exactly what some people supporting Leave are saying and it is indeed true, despite the protestations of those supporting Remain. It may be "rampant NIMBYism", but that's the view of some of the people you share this island with.

A very fair post, TrickyTree.

Too many people feel that the economy and indeed wider society as it stands doesn't work for them.

Personally I feel that story is a lot more than just immigration but its a powerful narrative which has found traction with a significant number, and it needs to be addressed.

Much of it feeds from the aftermath of the financial crisis, combined with ongoing trends in the global economy, unfortunately those issues aren't going away either, and austerity has restricted government's ability to respond to the challenges in a meaningful way.

CLAPTON

Filo25 wrote: »

It really is all immigration for you isn't it Clapton.

Can I just say on some of these points, I actually live in London, and if I need to see a GP for an urgent appointment I can't remember the last time I couldn't see them on the same day, I had a dentist who I could pretty much always see within a day or 2 at most if it was urgent rather than a routine checkup.

Assuming there aren't reliability issues on the service I can also get to work just fine on public transport each day.

I also get to vote for both the UK government and European parliament.

Last time I checked we hadn't concreted over London's wonderful parks to build housing for immigrants either, so we seem to be doing ok on that front as well, but maybe I missed it.

It just gets boring reading the same rubbish time after time, about how immigrants are to blame for everything wrong with the UK, yes there are issues connected with immigration, but spouting nonsense about how they bring no benefit to the country at all does yourself or the Brexit argument no favours at all.

I'm not doubting that you are doing fine. So you think the housing situation in London/SE is fine.
You see nothing that could be better.
I respect your view and do feel free is repeat it as often as you wish.

I however, disagree.

There are many issues that could be improved in the UK but this thread is about 'stay' or 'go' and immigration is highly relevant so make no apologies for discusssing the issue of the impact and consequences of increasing population. The current level of immigration bring no benefits to the people of the UK (ok except more coffee bars and restaurants) but much harm.
I will add, just for the record (for the 100th time), I do not 'blame' immigrants either individually or on mass, but am discussing the consequences of the resulting population pressures of which you see none.

Your (and the 'elite' and great and good) denial of the consequence of mass immigration is a fundamental reason why we are having this referendum.