If we vote for Brexit what happens

ruggedtoast

Conrad on Scottish Independence now:

Conrad wrote: »

I've said to you before, the Scots won't be voting to tie thier future to the lumbering EU squabble club. You're a canny, sensible lot and know deep down the UK is a very capable potent player and will be even more so as a globally oriented player, andt of course great European member. If you could just recognise the fact there will be no hampering of EU UK trade your whole view would alter

If you ignore this point it only confirms nothing more than bias, an abandonment of evidence

Conrad on Scottish Independence then:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4970094

15th May 14, 1:21 PM
Progress requires change. Those unable to change their minds bring nothing to the Human journey.

At most critical junctures in Human progress, a leap of faith was required.

Early heart surgeons almost gave up in the face of abuse that they were meddling in things that could have no good outcome.

Pioneering explorers were told America would never become anything other than a midge infested swamp.

Henry Ford when asked about his decision to build the Model T said; If I'd asked the people what they wanted, they would have told me faster horses.

Independence wont be plain sailing but the Scots will manage things perfectly well. The more the bitter together camp throw out scare stories the more it strengthens the pro autonomy argument.

Or...

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5062062

18th Sep 14, 1:00 PM
I feel like the Scottish people have once again been duped by the collaborative elites and will soon regret a no vote when nothing much changes.

This is deffo not the end of independence.

Jeez, I wonder what changed Conrad. Why is independence for Scotland terrible now, but the passport for a bright new future two years ago? Its not something to do with the spectre of Scottish indy pretty much being the death knell for the hard Brexit you want is it?

antrobus

Moby wrote: »

Absolute nonsense. The invasion of Wales was to extend the land grab of the English King and his retainers.. We have been subject to English aristocratic imperialism for centuries....

At the time both the king and the aristocracy were French. England was conquered in 1066, you know.

Moby wrote: »

... Scotland had alliances with France to back them up against English imperialism. ...

Does that mean that the absorption of northern Northumbria and Strathclyde by Scotland counts as Scottish imperialism?

Moby wrote: »

...Ireland fought a war of independence. So stop playing the 'taking back our country' card because from where other people stand it's pretty rank hypocrisy.

I think you need to read some history books.:)

ruggedtoast

antrobus wrote: »

At the time both the king and the aristocracy were French. England was conquered in 1066, you know.



Does that mean that the absorption of northern Northumbria and Strathclyde by Scotland counts as Scottish imperialism?



I think you need to read some history books.:)

You're having to go back rather a long way there...

CLAPTON

Shakethedisease wrote: »

A lot of Brexiteers believe this sort ( 1930's-esque ) kind of thing too.



The SNP would never get the time of day in any UK newspaper to print this sort of semi-racist stuff against anyone. They'd be run out of Govt and they'd be a round of sackings if any MP or MSP even tweeted this.

Seems if you're a right wing Tory it's fine though. Not doing the Brexit cause any favours to be honest. In fact is a bit worrying Tebbit is being allowed free reign with this in todays' 'climate'.

Tebbit isn't an MP so he can't be run out of government
of course SNP racism is concentrated on the hatred of the English: no sacking for being anti english in scotland

TrickyTree83

ruggedtoast wrote: »

Conrad on Scottish Independence now:



Conrad on Scottish Independence then:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4970094



Or...

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5062062



Jeez, I wonder what changed Conrad. Why is independence for Scotland terrible now, but the passport for a bright new future two years ago? Its not something to do with the spectre of Scottish indy pretty much being the death knell for the hard Brexit you want is it?

Probably when he realised the SNP and the independence movement lie through their chuffing teeth about pretty much everything.

Test what I've said for yourself, fact check what they claim/say and see if it holds up to scrutiny. I'll even help you if you need, just PM me.

You'll eventually arrive at the same conclusion I did after months of arguing. The support for independence sounds very much like a religious dogma. For them it doesn't matter if they're wrong or right, it doesn't matter that the SNP are making a mess of devolved government, it doesn't matter that the SNP have been caught out lying about indepenence, Brexit and the EU. The long list of failures is staggering. If any of them looked at it with an open mind - which hasn't happened yet - they would change from supporting independence. It'll be an order of magnitude worse for Scotland than Brexit would ever be, but they won't hear it.

They're either completely lost to the dogmatic "Indepence will solve everything!" mantra or they're too stupid to realise what the evidence in front of them is saying. If that sounds harsh it's for good reason. I tried for months to have a proper debate, to go back and forth over statistics, academic papers on the impact of this, that and the other, to ascertain whether it really was the right decision or not for Scots. They refuse to entertain anything which doesn't support their argument.

It's wrong for Scots in these areas:

- Government control, the EU will centralise control, the UK is devolving control. The fishing areas of Scotland will revert to being under Scottish control when the UK leaves the EU. The EU will retain control if Nicola Sturgeon gets her way.
- Economy, Scotland sends 64%+ of its entire export trade to the rest of the UK, and a mere 11% to the EU.
- Economy, Scotland has roughly 80,000 jobs at risk from Brexit. The SNP tell them it's the greatest threat their economy faces, bare faced lies. Scotland has 1,000,000 jobs at risk from independence. Do the maths.
- Economy (again!), Scotland is currently running a deficit around £15bn. That includes Barnett funding which would be lost in the event of independence, but it's OK they say, oil is going back up in price. Like it made a difference in 2014?

And many more arguments besides.

But they'll tell you GERS is wrong because it's statistically inaccurate, as if some tiny calculation errors might account for £15bn+, or 1,000,000 jobs, or that the 64% of trade is also wrong because of nuanced statistical errors. Ask them for statistics that prove independence is the better option and they don't have any, they just stick to their guns trying to discredit the evidence against it because there is no evidence that supports it short of internet memes that are so ridiculously wrong it makes the Loch Ness monster seem like a reasonably plausible story.

End rant.

Conrad

I make no secret I supported independence, but the Scots did not agree.
The decision was made, I accept it. Now that we're leaving the EU it would be a huge risk for Svotland to tie itself to that lumbering beast. We will thrive like billyo and the Scots know this deep down, or will do soon.

Local democracy and independence is the best option for a nation, but not when it risks tieing Scotland to the has been EU disaster zone.

Moby

CLAPTON wrote: »

oh dear
that deep seated racism quickly comes to the surface in times of stress.

Yep I clearly invented everything. The English Kings have always had a peaceful relationship with their neighbours.;)

Moby

antrobus wrote: »

At the time both the king and the aristocracy were French. England was conquered in 1066, you know.

The Normans settled in what later became France but they were originally Scandinavian from what I recall. Nevertheless the point I was making was that what became the English aristocracy then proceeded to follow a policy of wars against their celtic neighbours. The United Kingdom has a history of bloody English imperialism.....so claims of 'taking back control' are rank hypocrisy.

ruggedtoast

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Probably when he realised the SNP and the independence movement lie through their chuffing teeth about pretty much everything.

Test what I've said for yourself, fact check what they claim/say and see if it holds up to scrutiny. I'll even help you if you need, just PM me.

You'll eventually arrive at the same conclusion I did after months of arguing. The support for independence sounds very much like a religious dogma. For them it doesn't matter if they're wrong or right, it doesn't matter that the SNP are making a mess of devolved government, it doesn't matter that the SNP have been caught out lying about indepenence, Brexit and the EU. The long list of failures is staggering. If any of them looked at it with an open mind - which hasn't happened yet - they would change from supporting independence. It'll be an order of magnitude worse for Scotland than Brexit would ever be, but they won't hear it.

They're either completely lost to the dogmatic "Indepence will solve everything!" mantra or they're too stupid to realise what the evidence in front of them is saying. If that sounds harsh it's for good reason. I tried for months to have a proper debate, to go back and forth over statistics, academic papers on the impact of this, that and the other, to ascertain whether it really was the right decision or not for Scots. They refuse to entertain anything which doesn't support their argument.

It's wrong for Scots in these areas:

- Government control, the EU will centralise control, the UK is devolving control. The fishing areas of Scotland will revert to being under Scottish control when the UK leaves the EU. The EU will retain control if Nicola Sturgeon gets her way.
- Economy, Scotland sends 64%+ of its entire export trade to the rest of the UK, and a mere 11% to the EU.
- Economy, Scotland has roughly 80,000 jobs at risk from Brexit. The SNP tell them it's the greatest threat their economy faces, bare faced lies. Scotland has 1,000,000 jobs at risk from independence. Do the maths.
- Economy (again!), Scotland is currently running a deficit around £15bn. That includes Barnett funding which would be lost in the event of independence, but it's OK they say, oil is going back up in price. Like it made a difference in 2014?

And many more arguments besides.

But they'll tell you GERS is wrong because it's statistically inaccurate, as if some tiny calculation errors might account for £15bn+, or 1,000,000 jobs, or that the 64% of trade is also wrong because of nuanced statistical errors. Ask them for statistics that prove independence is the better option and they don't have any, they just stick to their guns trying to discredit the evidence against it because there is no evidence that supports it short of internet memes that are so ridiculously wrong it makes the Loch Ness monster seem like a reasonably plausible story.

End rant.

As part of the UK the Sots will suffer from all the EU ignominies you describe, but with having no say whatsoever in their terms.

Quite opposite to your reverse Braveheartism, Scotland in the EU will have more influence over its future than England out of the EU will have. Ironically Scotland as a voting member of EU terms, which the rUK will be forced to kowtow to, will be in the happy position of having more influence over the rUK's future than the rUK.

And that's realpolitk I am afraid. The EU is a giant bloc that we need much more than it needs us.

The world has moved on and England is a small country next to what is developing into a huge one. If you Brexits want to do something about it I suggest you develop a time machine and go back to the 50s and find a way to stop the colonies rebelling. Because thats the only way you are going to have the clout for this rather fuzzy ideal of independence you hold.

i.e. independence that is entirely dependent on the rest of the world, even the large parts of it composed of people who historically hate us, doing us a massive favour with trade deals.

CLAPTON

Moby wrote: »

Yep I clearly invented everything. The English Kings have always had a peaceful relationship with their neighbours.;)

The last English king was killed at Hastings: thereafter the country was ruled by French kings (ethnic Scandinavians ) and then British kings of England and Wales.

It is true that neither wales nor england nor scotland nor wales had an entirely peaceful history : indeed it could reasonably be said that few peoples lived in a peaceful upotia.

Nothing of course wrong about discussing history of hundreds of years ago but to relate ones current difficulties to these issues is almost as stupid as to blame the EU for all the problems of the world.