If we vote for Brexit what happens

setmefree2

Moby wrote: »

How can you be brought up in a working class community and be a tory ....doesn't wash with me, not does you faux sensitivity over my views.

Tbh of course I've always been aware that some Tories are snobs and look down on working class people (though more so in the past than now) However, it's only since the referendum that it has really hit home to me that there really is such a thing as a Labour snob - lefties who hate and look down on the working classes - that has been quite a revelation and tbh a shock. Some of the rhetoric from the left aimed at working class people has been abhorrent and is something that I won't forget for a very long time.

However, I have read "Chavs - the demonisation of the working classes" back when it first came out - so I shouldn't have been surprised.

TrickyTree83

ruggedtoast wrote: »

Can I ask why you choose to blame Labour for what it was like in the part of Wales you grew up in, rather than the Tories for making it like that in the first place?

We should not label people as working class and then expect that they should not vote Conservative because of that. Individuals can make decisions on their own without needing to be labelled as working class and shamed into voting against what their conscience, opinion and logic dictates. I'm sure there are working class Conservative voters out there, I would probably like to class myself as one. I come from a working class background, I wasn't brought up in South Wales but did live there for 4 years.

That which the Conservatives in the past did that you disagree with should not preclude you from voting for a cause you agree with in the present simply because of where you were brought up, your socio-economic background or the history of the political party. It's completely irrational and tribal.

Moby

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

The EU commission is a consolidation of power which is neither elected by nor accountable to the people of the EU.

That's because it's the Executive! By the way the President is elected by the parliament and also by the way the commission only suggests legislation, the elected parliament ultimately decides!
To me it's more democratic than being represented by a Tory MP when you are Labour yourself. There are no perfect democracies....didn't Hillary just win the popular vote by quite a margin!
There was a lot wrong with the EU but our system is no better....we are split between North and South economically, Scotland/NI voted remain etc!

ruggedtoast

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Semantics regarding "meeting" me. And my example is not an example, like a cow isn't a cow and a pig isn't a pig I expect?

We're not talking about the hypothetical operation of the EU commission in your example which would rely on the commission seeing things the way others do. That's not a democratic institution. They are not accountable (i.e. they cannot be defeated by the electorate or their representatives) and they are not elected into that position.

It's not paranoia, it's principle. The EU commission is not a democratic body.

What has my disadvantage got to do with the democratic workings of the EU, stay on point, your deflections and pivots will not work with me.

OK you win. I concede the point.

I have met you, and you do appear to have the very faintest, so faint it is almost imperceptible, understanding of how the EU works. Unlike every single other one of your Brexit buddies I have met, who have none whatsoever.

Celebrate Trickytree. Rejoice in this victory, so hard won with so little.

ruggedtoast

I didn't vote for the Tories. And I didn't vote for Theresa May to be Prime Minister.

Of the people who did vote for the Tories most of them didn't vote for Theresa May and none of them voted for her to be Prime Minister. But there she is.

How is this more democratic than the European Commission? I am not defending this body I just don't really see the difference. We elect our own government and our government appoints its EC Commissioner.

TrickyTree83

Moby wrote: »

That's because it's the Executive! By the way the President is elected by the parliament and also by the way the commission only suggests legislation, the elected parliament ultimately decides!
To me it's more democratic than being represented by a Tory MP when you are Labour yourself. There are no perfect democracies....didn't Hillary just win the popular vote by quite a margin!
There was a lot wrong with the EU but our system is no better....we are split between North and South economically, Scotland/NI voted remain etc!

So the executive is not accountable to the people nor is it elected by the people, right?

The president is elected by the representatives, unlike the US where the president is elected by the people.

The commission can propose legislation, but cannot ratify it.

The parliament cannot propose nor repeal legislation but can only ratify it.

Take the UK parliament for example, if Labour gets into power they've said they will repeal certain UK legislation, right? I imagine the "bedroom tax" would be one.

If a new set of MEP's get into the EU parliament, they can't repeal anything. Nothing. Therefore if you get a split between Eastern/Western/Northern/Southern EU states in the parliament you can end up in a situation where legislation goes through that is detrimental to your country with no ability to change it via democratic means. None.

You cannot argue this point, it's a simple matter of fact.

We can say no democracy is perfect, we can acknowledge the failings in the UK, the US and others. It still does not change the fact that the EU commission and the fact that they alone propose legislation is not democratic, they are not the representatives of the people, full stop, end of story.

TrickyTree83

ruggedtoast wrote: »

I didn't vote for the Tories. And I didn't vote for Theresa May to be Prime Minister.

Of the people who did vote for the Tories most of them didn't vote for Theresa May and none of them voted for her to be Prime Minister. But there she is.

How is this more democratic than the European Commission? I am not defending this body I just don't really see the difference. We elect our own government and our government appoints its EC Commissioner.

It's about legislative power.

For example the current court case in the supreme court is on this very issue.

You celebrate the fact that parliament in this country may be required to repeal the European Communities act. Yet imagine if there was legislation at an EU level that you fundamentally disagreed with. You cannot repeal it, ever, unless you get enough consensus at the commission level. The representatives of the people in the EU cannot repeal any legislation.

Moby

setmefree2 wrote: »

Tbh of course I've always been aware that some Tories are snobs and look down on working class people (though more so in the past than now)

Hurrah for that!

However, it's only since the referendum that it has really hit home to me that there really is such a thing as a Labour snob - lefties who hate and look down on the working classes - that has been quite a revelation and tbh a shock. Some of the rhetoric from the left aimed at working class people has been abhorrent and is something that I won't forget for a very long time.

No that's a straw man......the point being made to you and your ilk is that the likes of Farage, Trump, Johnson etc lied to the working classes over the solution to their problems using the politics of fear. They took advantage of anti elitism sentiment, stoked it up and poured fuel on the fire. Corbyn made a speech on this a couple of days ago.

However, I have read "Chavs - the demonisation of the working classes" back when it first came out - so I shouldn't have been surprised.

I think you'll find Owen Jones would be on my side not yours.

wotsthat

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

It's about legislative power.

For example the current court case in the supreme court is on this very issue.

You celebrate the fact that parliament in this country may be required to repeal the European Communities act. Yet imagine if there was legislation at an EU level that you fundamentally disagreed with. You cannot repeal it, ever, unless you get enough consensus at the commission level. The representatives of the people in the EU cannot repeal any legislation.

It's hard to take these concerns seriously when the UK has an unelected second chamber and the head of state is only head of state because her dad was (and she didn't have any pesky brothers or older sisters).

TrickyTree83

wotsthat wrote: »

It's hard to take these concerns seriously when the UK has an unelected second chamber and the head of state is only head of state because her dad was (and she didn't have any pesky brothers or older sisters).

Interesting.

Where does legislative power reside in the UK? It's only in one place, the HoL is only there for checks and balances. Which I would have thought people would be happy about. The fact that they're not elected and rich themselves probably precludes them from being bought more than a senate would.