If we vote for Brexit what happens

Moby

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

o the executive is not accountable to the people nor is it elected by the people, right?

Uhh no....... the Commission is accountable to the EU Parliament which is elected.

The president is elected by the representatives, unlike the US where the president is elected by the people.

I think the President is elected by each govmt in the EU

The commission can propose legislation, but cannot ratify it.

Yes

The parliament cannot propose nor repeal legislation but can only ratify it.

No Parliament can ask the Commission via parliamentary groups of MEP's to propose legislation.

Take the UK parliament for example, if Labour gets into power they've said they will repeal certain UK legislation, right? I imagine the "bedroom tax" would be one.

Yes

If a new set of MEP's get into the EU parliament, they can't repeal anything. Nothing. Therefore if you get a split between Eastern/Western/Northern/Southern EU states in the parliament you can end up in a situation where legislation goes through that is detrimental to your country with no ability to change it via democratic means. None.

As whenever you get a Tory Govmt they enact legislation that is harmful to the North, Scotland and Wales!
Also:-
Approximately 50% of amendments proposed by the European Parliament become law. This is considerably higher than national parliaments in their national legislative processes. At the national level, governments usually control a majority of seats in their parliament, and can force their MPs to vote through proposed laws; as a result, governments are rarely defeated. In Brussels, in contrast, neither the Commission nor the governments in the Council can rely on a ‘governing majority’ in the European Parliament or force the MEPs to vote a particular way. As a result, coalitions have to be built issue-by-issue.
These checks-and-balances mean that in practice EU policies tend to be politically centrist, as laws cannot pass without the support of a large majority of governments as well as a majority of the MEPs. Put another way, without the check provided by the European Parliament, the EU would have passed more left-wing policies when the majority of governments were on the left (in the 1990s) and more right-wing policies when the majority of governments were on the right (in the 2000s).
http://ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/the-european-parliament/

You cannot argue this point, it's a simple matter of fact.

Sorry to disappoint!

We can say no democracy is perfect, we can acknowledge the failings in the UK, the US and others. It still does not change the fact that the EU commission and the fact that they alone propose legislation is not democratic, they are not the representatives of the people, full stop, end of story

Wrong. See above.;)

TrickyTree83

Moby wrote: »

Uhh no....... the Commission is accountable to the EU Parliament which is elected.


I think the President is elected by each govmt in the EU

Yes
No Parliament can ask the Commission via parliamentary groups of MEP's to propose legislation.


Yes


As whenever you get a Tory Govmt they enact legislation that is harmful to the North, Scotland and Wales!
Also:-
Approximately 50% of amendments proposed by the European Parliament become law. This is considerably higher than national parliaments in their national legislative processes. At the national level, governments usually control a majority of seats in their parliament, and can force their MPs to vote through proposed laws; as a result, governments are rarely defeated. In Brussels, in contrast, neither the Commission nor the governments in the Council can rely on a ‘governing majority’ in the European Parliament or force the MEPs to vote a particular way. As a result, coalitions have to be built issue-by-issue.
These checks-and-balances mean that in practice EU policies tend to be politically centrist, as laws cannot pass without the support of a large majority of governments as well as a majority of the MEPs. Put another way, without the check provided by the European Parliament, the EU would have passed more left-wing policies when the majority of governments were on the left (in the 1990s) and more right-wing policies when the majority of governments were on the right (in the 2000s).
http://ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/the-european-parliament/



Sorry to disappoint!

Wrong. See above.;)

That's wonderful, and I'm sure some will have learnt something from that.

Where does it say that the EU parliament, those directly elected representatives, can propose or repeal legislation?

The Commission is accountable, I must have missed this part. Where do I vote to get rid of the UK commissioner?

Conrad

Moby wrote: »

Uhh no....... the Commission is accountable to the EU Parliament which is elected.

Yes the people feel so well represented by the Brussels elite, it's such effective direct democracy with superb alignment to the needs and views of citizens.


Terrific economic outcomes and outstanding trade deals........


Keep up the great work, everybody loves you Brussels and wont be turning their backs in the coming General Elections.......


A special mention for all the regulations that suit the corporate world so well, keeping competition and new entrants out. No wonder the Establishment adores the old farts in Brussels

Moby

=TrickyTree83;71744731]That's wonderful, and I'm sure some will have learnt something from that.

Where does it say that the EU parliament, those directly elected representatives, can propose or repeal legislation?

One of the most dramatic changes in the institutional set up of the European Union has been the increased power of this institution. The MEPs now have the power to amend EU laws and elect the Commission, as well as several other key powers.
In almost all areas of policy the European Parliament has the same law-making power as the Council of the EU (composed of the 28 governments). The EU legislative process is illustrated in Figure 1. It starts with a proposal by the Commission, and the Parliament and the Council then amend the proposal as they see fit – usually by a qualified-majority in the Council and a simple majority (a majority of those voting) in the Parliament. Once the Council and Parliament have agreed a text it becomes law, and passes to national governments to implement, overseen by the Commission and the Court of Justice.
http://ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/the-european-parliament/

The Commission is accountable, I must have missed this part. Where do I vote to get rid of the UK commissioner?

Don't be silly....the commissioners are appointed by the member govmts....only the head, (the President is elected...see above).....but you wouldn't expect anything else surely! we don't elect our civil servants....the permanent secs. etc are appointed!

antrobus

setmefree2 wrote: »

T...... However, it's only since the referendum that it has really hit home to me that there really is such a thing as a Labour snob - lefties who hate and look down on the working classes - that has been quite a revelation and tbh a shock.....

Sad but true. It's always been the case. It's inherent in a lot of left wing ideology, borrowed from the Marxist/Leninist concept of the 'vanguard' Normally results in disappointment as the actual working class don't like being told what to do anymore than anybody else.:)

wotsthat

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

Interesting.

Where does legislative power reside in the UK? It's only in one place, the HoL is only there for checks and balances. Which I would have thought people would be happy about. The fact that they're not elected and rich themselves probably precludes them from being bought more than a senate would.

http://www.parliament.uk/business/lords/work-of-the-house-of-lords/making-laws/

Bills (draft laws) start in either the House of Lords or House of Commons. They go through set stages of approval in both Houses before they can be signed off by the Queen (Royal Assent) and become an Act of Parliament (law).

I don't know how you can accuse the EU of being undemocratic whilst playing down the role of the Lords and the Queen in the legislative process.

My biggest problem with the EU is that the glorified civil servants are too prominent. We've all heard of Jean-Claude Juncker but I bet fewer would know the name of the head of the UK civil service. I don't think the head of the commission should be a politician (or ex politician).

TrickyTree83

Moby wrote: »

One of the most dramatic changes in the institutional set up of the European Union has been the increased power of this institution. The MEPs now have the power to amend EU laws and elect the Commission, as well as several other key powers.
In almost all areas of policy the European Parliament has the same law-making power as the Council of the EU (composed of the 28 governments). The EU legislative process is illustrated in Figure 1. It starts with a proposal by the Commission, and the Parliament and the Council then amend the proposal as they see fit – usually by a qualified-majority in the Council and a simple majority (a majority of those voting) in the Parliament. Once the Council and Parliament have agreed a text it becomes law, and passes to national governments to implement, overseen by the Commission and the Court of Justice.
http://ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/the-european-parliament/


Don't be silly....the commissioners are appointed by the member govmts....only the head, (the President is elected...see above).....but you wouldn't expect anything else surely! we don't elect our civil servants....the permanent secs. etc are appointed!

And whose bidding to the civil servants do in the UK? The bidding of the elected representatives that have a mandate to form a government. The permanent secretaries are appointed and take their lead from the minister, a member of the executive in this country who is an elected representative of the government who in turn is also elected.

In the EU that is not the case. The elected representatives are not the government. The president of the commission is elected by the peoples representatives, the president does not propose legislation alone. It's simply a choice of president from a pool of appointed people.

It's simply not a democratic body. And it holds the ultimate power to propose to create and repeal legislation.

Moby

Conrad wrote: »

Yes the people feel so well represented by the Brussels elite, it's such effective direct democracy with superb alignment to the needs and views of citizens.

As a person speaking on behalf of 'the people':eek:
How much love do you think the people of the North, Scotland and Wales have felt from Tory Govmts?

Terrific economic outcomes and outstanding trade deals........

So what do you have to offer for our future and puuuurleese don't prattle on about Singapore again:mad:

Keep up the great work, everybody loves you Brussels and wont be turning their backs in the coming General Elections.......


A special mention for all the regulations that suit the corporate world so well, keeping competition and new entrants out. No wonder the Establishment adores the old farts in Brussels

The wheel will turn full circle and we will get back to normal politics and you and your bandwagon politics of bufoonery will be exposed for what it is....a great big fat lie.

TrickyTree83

Moby wrote: »

The wheel will turn full circle and we will get back to normal politics and you and your bandwagon politics of bufoonery will be exposed for what it is....a great big fat lie.

Ironically that's what is happening to your brand of politics right now.

Across Europe and America.

And I'm so thankful for it. I hope that libertarianism, capitalism and individualism wins out over censorship, tribalism and collectivism (see communism).

Moby

TrickyTree83 wrote: »

And whose bidding to the civil servants do in the UK? The bidding of the elected representatives that have a mandate to form a government. The permanent secretaries are appointed and take their lead from the minister, a member of the executive in this country who is an elected representative of the government who in turn is also elected.

In the EU that is not the case. The elected representatives are not the government. The president of the commission is elected by the peoples representatives, the president does not propose legislation alone. It's simply a choice of president from a pool of appointed people.

It's simply not a democratic body. And it holds the ultimate power to propose to create and repeal legislation.

You are wriggling like a worm on a pin:rotfl:and totally ignored what I said above.....the Commission is answerable to the EU Parliament ....see above. You are so caught up in your bigoted pre-conceptions of the EU monster that you are failing to engage with the reality when it is given you on a plate.