Seller lied on property questionaire - Electrical fire

sean1989_2

AdrianC wrote: »

Yes, that's my point.
You ignored all the cues that the electrics were ancient, and had probably been worked on, even though the paperwork said it hadn't.
You're FTBs without - and this is not a slight or a dig - much of a clue about property ownership and the potential pitfalls, yet you got no professional check of the state of the property.

Honestly, I think your comeback is limited, and your time, effort and money would be far better put towards moving onwards and sorting the problems. You might also like to get a survey done retrospectively, so that you have forewarning of any other hidden problems, and can prioritise the work you're going to need to do. There's no point in making good all the plaster and decor after rewiring if you also need to address damp or other issues.

Not entirely correct -

1) i was under the assumption that all the sureveying was complete - me or the partner never recall being offered a small or full survey nor the option to change anything - it was always " we will deal with it" from the conveyancers

2) i questioned my ECU when i changed electricity suppliers - they told me it was new in 2007 ( again post 2005 but no documentation) so why would i then think " needs to be changed"

3) if we really wanted to be petty - my nan ( aged 86 ) has the same ECU and no issues - simply put because she doesnt go chopping and changing all the wires

4) the cooker has been rerouted upstairs - allegation but seems pretty strong when you have no cables heading to the cooker - a big hole leading from the cooker to an isolation box that has a hole leading to the fusebox - but only loose cables all cut. - the company providing the invoice of this being fitted in 2009 are not electricty safe registered

5) the fact that if you try following the fusebox instructions you turn off random areas of the house - example the shower controls the upstairs lights - the waster heater controls sockets - clearly messed with

6) im not an electrician so never would have opened the ECU to check that the owners hadnt made a ticking timebomb.

7) ECU load is 60 amps - presumably they added all the wires into the same slots to save on adding more breakers - yet there is over 100amps in breakers alone and then numerous wires into each breaker...

8) the previous owners are clearly idiots - and quite frankly i dont know how they could possibly sleep knowing they put lives of 2 people at risk

Cornucopia

I'm going through a similar issue, so I understand exactly where you are coming from. (Mine is gas-related, though).

In my case, I have bought and sold many, many properties but didn't see this issue coming, and I think it's asking quite a lot for the relevant professionals to expect laypeople to have and to properly apply the kind of specialist knowledge required. I would certainly now be wary of any property where the boiler is not situated on an external wall, though - this style of installation has gone from "popular" to illegal if not done properly in the space of 10 years.

However, and having said all of that, I think you will struggle to apportion blame satisfactorily, and in doing so, you need to keep a sense of proportion about which of the professionals is actually (both technically and practically) responsible for what.

As has already been mentioned, conveyancing is a paper-based exercise, and even then, a conveyancer will not be looking at practical pieces of paper like electrical reports. They simply don't do that. It's unlikely that they will share any blame.

The insurers should be helping you with the issues around the electrical fire, itself. However they are unlikely to accept any liability for the existing faults themselves. They may also want to play hard-ball, and seek to identify any possible route to avoiding or reducing their payout by trying to shift liability elsewhere (including on to you).

If you had a survey, check its terms. There's no liability on any of the professionals if you failed to ask what types of survey were available.

The most likely option is to sue your vendors for the costs of their negligent actions, which it seems like you are well on your way to being able to prove (certainly beyond the balance of probabilities, which is what this kind of legal action requires).

Good luck - I suspect it will not be easy going.

With regards to your points above...

5) I would never trust the labels on a consumer unit - they are invariably wrong or have insufficient detail. Any vaguely professional person doing electrical work checks its isolation thoroughly, and anyone else should not be touching it.

7) 60 Amps is very small for a modern household - what does this relate to? Is it a sign on the box itself or the size of a main fuse of some sort?

AdrianC

sean1989 wrote: »

1) i was under the assumption that all the sureveying was complete - me or the partner never recall being offered a small or full survey nor the option to change anything - it was always " we will deal with it" from the conveyancers

The survey is nothing whatsoever to do with the conveyancers. I'm quite surprised that neither they nor the EA tried to sell you a survey, but that doesn't mean that organising a survey is anybody else's job but yours.

2) i questioned my ECU when i changed electricity suppliers - they told me it was new in 2007 ( again post 2005 but no documentation) so why would i then think " needs to be changed"

The consumer unit is nothing whatsoever to do with the electricity suppliers. They have no way of knowing when it was last changed. I suspect you've got confused with the meter.

3) if we really wanted to be petty - my nan ( aged 86 ) has the same ECU and no issues - simply put because she doesnt go chopping and changing all the wires

But you knew that the house had a new cooker, new shower and new kitchen...

4) the cooker has been rerouted upstairs - allegation but seems pretty strong when you have no cables heading to the cooker - a big hole leading from the cooker to an isolation box that has a hole leading to the fusebox - but only loose cables all cut.

So the cooker doesn't even work...? And, between June and the other day, you've never thought to wonder why?

6) im not an electrician so never would have opened the ECU to check that the owners hadnt made a ticking timebomb.

But you surely, SURELY, when you were looking around the place with the intent of making the biggest investment of your life, you opened the cupboard and thought "Oooh, that looks a bit ancient and ropy"...? And when the PIF came back with "no changes", did you not think "Hold on one minute"...?

7) ECU load is 60 amps - presumably they added all the wires into the same slots to save on adding more breakers - yet there is over 100amps in breakers alone and then numerous wires into each breaker...

So this "60A max" sticker was visible? And so were the ratings of the various breakers? And you can count?

8) the previous owners are clearly idiots - and quite frankly i dont know how they could possibly sleep knowing they put lives of 2 people at risk

I'm not disputing that there's clearly been an idiot at it in the past - although you have no proof that it was them DIYing, rather than an idiot masquerading as a pro.

!!!!!!, you've been living in the place for more than a third of a year. And you haven't even had the most basic of pokes-around the services and condition of the place?

Carrot007

sean1989 wrote: »

Not entirely correct -

1) i was under the assumption that all the sureveying was complete - me or the partner never recall being offered a small or full survey nor the option to change anything - it was always " we will deal with it" from the conveyancers

No one asks you if you want a survey. The mrotgage company do one for their benefit. if you want one you have to ask for one.

sean1989 wrote: »

2) i questioned my ECU when i changed electricity suppliers - they told me it was new in 2007 ( again post 2005 but no documentation) so why would i then think " needs to be changed"

What is an ECU. Do you mean the Consumer Unit? It is nothing to do with the electricity suppliers. they cannot comment on it.

sean1989 wrote: »

3) if we really wanted to be petty - my nan ( aged 86 ) has the same ECU and no issues - simply put because she doesnt go chopping and changing all the wires

Some people bodge things. Fact of life. This is why you get a survey.

sean1989 wrote: »

4) the cooker has been rerouted upstairs - allegation but seems pretty strong when you have no cables heading to the cooker - a big hole leading from the cooker to an isolation box that has a hole leading to the fusebox - but only loose cables all cut. - the company providing the invoice of this being fitted in 2009 are not electricty safe registered

To get anywhere you need to prove the previous owner actually knew about this. maybe they just hired cowboys and never noticed.

sean1989 wrote: »

5) the fact that if you try following the fusebox instructions you turn off random areas of the house - example the shower controls the upstairs lights - the waster heater controls sockets - clearly messed with

Labels can move around and be wrong. Never trust them.

sean1989 wrote: »

6) im not an electrician so never would have opened the ECU to check that the owners hadnt made a ticking timebomb.

Maybe it was someone else.

sean1989 wrote: »

7) ECU load is 60 amps - presumably they added all the wires into the same slots to save on adding more breakers - yet there is over 100amps in breakers alone and then numerous wires into each breaker...

Again not clear. A photo might help.

sean1989 wrote: »

8) the previous owners are clearly idiots - and quite frankly i dont know how they could possibly sleep knowing they put lives of 2 people at risk

Idiots yes, but the issue is if they knew.

cattermole

Your insurance does not seem to cover much!

So no legal cover ?!

Mine has a whole section on legal cover including stuff like boundary disputes, contracts, land registry including loss of deeds.

Plus it doesn't cost that much either.

Did they sell you the insurance as well?l

fashionvictim

You had a valuation by your mortgage company but they would of offered additional services like a homebuyers report. It is not required and is more money, we had one on our flat was about £500. It just gave us a list of things to check or get further advice on based on them looking at things. It's hard to do all the looking yourself on house viewings !! I would say this absolute minimum requirement if the house doesn't scream major issues.

If there are major issues - full structural survey time or just run off unless you are a builder !!!

paye

Sorry to be bold, but you only have your self to blame for this if you didn't carry out your own survey. If this was picked up in the survey then you could of negotiated the cost of rewiring the place off the purchase price.

As you now know when you buy an old house there are always things that pop up and you should have some savings to deal with issues like these.

You will waste alot of time and maybe money going through the courts to sue. I would put it down to one of those things and move on. £4k for a rewire sounds a bit much, get a few more quotes. If your good at DIY then do all the wall chasings and lifting up floorboards yourself. Buy all the materials yourself aswell, could work out cheaper.

Good Luck

cattermole

AdrianC wrote: »

The survey is nothing whatsoever to do with the conveyancers. I'm quite surprised that neither they nor the EA tried to sell you a survey, but that doesn't mean that organising a survey is anybody else's job but yours.



The consumer unit is nothing whatsoever to do with the electricity suppliers. They have no way of knowing when it was last changed. I suspect you've got confused with the meter.



But you knew that the house had a new cooker, new shower and new kitchen...



So the cooker doesn't even work...? And, between June and the other day, you've never thought to wonder why?



But you surely, SURELY, when you were looking around the place with the intent of making the biggest investment of your life, you opened the cupboard and thought "Oooh, that looks a bit ancient and ropy"...? And when the PIF came back with "no changes", did you not think "Hold on one minute"...?



So this "60A max" sticker was visible? And so were the ratings of the various breakers? And you can count?



I'm not disputing that there's clearly been an idiot at it in the past - although you have no proof that it was them DIYing, rather than an idiot masquerading as a pro.

!!!!!!, you've been living in the place for more than a third of a year. And you haven't even had the most basic of pokes-around the services and condition of the place?

Despite all your points above - no electrical test and no boiler service since 2009 on TP6 solicitor should have highlighted and recommended checks.

AdrianC

Yes, they probably should have. And, yes, they probably should have queried the lack of survey.

Any bets on it being the EA's "recommended" conveyancer?

sean1989_2

i appreciate all the comments and advice... i am still going to contact everyone i can (conveyencers,house insurance etc) to find out just exactly what can be done. Never once was the service offered to do a report - as previously mentioned - from what we was told " everything was taken care of" we were never informed a survey was not being completed on the house so why would we thing it wasnt. for 2k in fees we thought it was.

Again i cant stress enough that if the box was ticked "yes" to electrical amendments - i would have immediatly kicked up a fuss - as this was marked as "no" i clearly let my guard down.

This is the whole point of what im trying to say, had this been completed correctly - maybe we would have found the errors much earlier. Had the completion paperwork come through much earlier (we received all this on the 1st October) then more queries would have been asked. Were quite lucky that the shower randomly cut out.

And i saw someone mentioned the cooker isnt working?.. the cooker does work - its jnow just plugged into a wall rather than into an isolator switch - the switch was hidden behind a piece of wood and "fake cuboard panel" - not at all fishy with sellers who didnt amend any electricals so they say