Seller lied on property questionaire - Electrical fire

cattermole

AdrianC wrote: »

The survey is nothing whatsoever to do with the conveyancers. I'm quite surprised that neither they nor the EA tried to sell you a survey, but that doesn't mean that organising a survey is anybody else's job but yours.



The consumer unit is nothing whatsoever to do with the electricity suppliers. They have no way of knowing when it was last changed. I suspect you've got confused with the meter.



But you knew that the house had a new cooker, new shower and new kitchen...


So the cooker doesn't even work...? And, between June and the other day, you've never thought to wonder why?



But you surely, SURELY, when you were looking around the place with the intent of making the biggest investment of your life, you opened the cupboard and thought "Oooh, that looks a bit ancient and ropy"...? And when the PIF came back with "no changes", did you not think "Hold on one minute"...?



So this "60A max" sticker was visible? And so were the ratings of the various breakers? And you can count?



I'm not disputing that there's clearly been an idiot at it in the past - although you have no proof that it was them DIYing, rather than an idiot masquerading as a pro.

!!!!!!, you've been living in the place for more than a third of a year. And you haven't even had the most basic of pokes-around the services and condition of the place?

Whether them or someone masquerading as a pro it makes no difference to the answers they gave on the property information document which forms part of the contract.

sean1989_2

cattermole wrote: »

Whether them or someone masquerading as a pro it makes no difference to the answers they gave on the property information document which forms part of the contract.

Thank you - someone that understands my point.

When they say "no" it means no...

Not "well we did but it was some cowboy that rigged our house to explode so im not telling you"

Thrugelmir

cattermole wrote: »

Whether them or someone masquerading as a pro it makes no difference to the answers they gave on the property information document which forms part of the contract.

Also the original survey may well have made recommendations. Surveyors normally cover their backsides very broadly as they are no more specialists in certain areas than the conveyancers.

cattermole

sean1989 wrote: »

i appreciate all the comments and advice... i am still going to contact everyone i can (conveyencers,house insurance etc) to find out just exactly what can be done. Never once was the service offered to do a report - as previously mentioned - from what we was told " everything was taken care of" we were never informed a survey was not being completed on the house so why would we thing it wasnt. for 2k in fees we thought it was.

Again i cant stress enough that if the box was ticked "yes" to electrical amendments - i would have immediatly kicked up a fuss - as this was marked as "no" i clearly let my guard down.

This is the whole point of what im trying to say, had this been completed correctly - maybe we would have found the errors much earlier. Had the completion paperwork come through much earlier (we received all this on the 1st October) then more queries would have been asked. Were quite lucky that the shower randomly cut out.

And i saw someone mentioned the cooker isnt working?.. the cooker does work - its jnow just plugged into a wall rather than into an isolator switch - the switch was hidden behind a piece of wood and "fake cuboard panel" - not at all fishy with sellers who didnt amend any electricals so they say

The property info form is returned to your solicitor from the offset it really is up to them to make you aware of any potential "risks" and raise queries with other party before exchange of contracts.

This is where I don't agree with other posters yes maybe you should have had surveys done etc or realised this, that and the other. BUT the solicitor still has an absolute duty to point out any risks to you and also to the lender.

I stand by my advice to make calculated complaints.

MM64

Hi Sean 1989,

Sorry to here of your problems, I feel some people on here need a bit more empathy as you are a FTB and not a seasoned house buyer.

I am an electrical engineer with 25 years experience so hopefully can give you some advice.

From what you've posted the main thing you might have some recourse with is the shower alterations.

Bathrooms are deemed "special locations" and are fully notifiable under building regs. Your vendor would be in breach if they altered this in any way.

The consumer unit sounds old and was probably installed pre 2005. You would have difficulty proving otherwise.

By the way the fact the individual fuses add up to more than 60amps is not relevant at all. Without getting too technical there is a formula called "diversity factor" almost all combined domestic fuses add up to considerably more than the sevice fuse.

It doesn't make it clear in your OP if the "cooker" is a full electric cooker or oven and gas hob.

If only a single oven then it is probably fed via a 1.5mm flex and would simply be plugged in to a local socket outlet and not notifiable to building control.

Unfortunately the bodged wiring would be difficult to prove who or when it was done.

The shower alteration is defiantly your best chance of proving illegal work.

Some pictures would help but from what you describe a total re-wire seems the only option. £4K seems a fair price to me but by all means get some more quotes.

sean1989_2

Also to add to this...

The oven and hob fitted in 2009 state " this installation must be carried out in accordance with the current I.E.E wiring refulations and buidling regulations PART P"

The company on the invoice is NOT electricity safe registered or whatever - i cant find any certification for them on the registers.

Now - either they set everything up incorrectly and the sellers had no idea - or... as there is a completly fine isolator switch completly hidden behind a "fake cuboard" and dangling wires... knowing that the kitchen was refurbed 12 months before we purchased - im guessing that this is when they completly changed the supply and rerouted the mains upstairs.

regardless of which - the fact they have had so much work done on the kitchen and the bathroom - including the electric shower and isolator - im guessing there should have been some certificate or acknowledgement from them

Before researching everything since the accident - i was not aware of the post 2005 rules so obviously never questioned them during the visit

Cornucopia

"Illegal work"... This is one of the issues in my case, too - the question of whether work was illegal at the point it was done, and whether even if it was, that automatically creates a civil liability.

The Electrical Safety Register(s) are relatively recent, and do not have the same legal standing as the Gas equivalent.

sean1989_2

MM64 wrote: »

Hi Sean 1989,

Sorry to here of your problems, I feel some people on here need a bit more empathy as you are a FTB and not a seasoned house buyer.

I am an electrical engineer with 25 years experience so hopefully can give you some advice.

From what you've posted the main thing you might have some recourse with is the shower alterations.

Bathrooms are deemed "special locations" and are fully notifiable under building regs. Your vendor would be in breach if they altered this in any way.

The consumer unit sounds old and was probably installed pre 2005. You would have difficulty proving otherwise.

By the way the fact the individual fuses add up to more than 60amps is not relevant at all. Without getting too technical there is a formula called "diversity factor" almost all combined domestic fuses add up to considerably more than the sevice fuse.

It doesn't make it clear in your OP if the "cooker" is a full electric cooker or oven and gas hob.

If only a single oven then it is probably fed via a 1.5mm flex and would simply be plugged in to a local socket outlet and not notifiable to building control.

Unfortunately the bodged wiring would be difficult to prove who or when it was done.

The shower alteration is defiantly your best chance of proving illegal work.

Some pictures would help but from what you describe a total re-wire seems the only option. £4K seems a fair price to me but by all means get some more quotes.

Thanks for the reply - Its a seperate gas hob and electric oven. It seems to have been built into an isolator switch but then this has been hidden behing some cupboards and completly by passed with the oven now being plugged into a socket along with the hob- i can take pictures which show where the wires used to divert before being rewired to head upstairs - the wires in the new isolator box upstairs are all melted and burnt as well.

The electrician that came had to cut back 6 wires in the CU which were litterally split burnt and one arcing just to make it safe, in doing so he also removed the shower circuit condemning it and stating it was completly unsafe - the wire here was litterally melted to the breaker and the fuse in the breaker had melted - also the breaker had melted and had to be forced off the slots

The shower manufacturer online states the model was May 2008 - presumably the work was done after this so post 2005 so presumably again should have been stated...

cattermole

sean1989 wrote: »

Thanks for the reply - Its a seperate gas hob and electric oven. It seems to have been built into an isolator switch but then this has been hidden behing some cupboards and completly by passed with the oven now being plugged into a socket along with the hob- i can take pictures which show where the wires used to divert before being rewired to head upstairs - the wires in the new isolator box upstairs are all melted and burnt as well.

The electrician that came had to cut back 6 wires in the CU which were litterally split burnt and one arcing just to make it safe, in doing so he also removed the shower circuit condemning it and stating it was completly unsafe - the wire here was litterally melted to the breaker and the fuse in the breaker had melted - also the breaker had melted and had to be forced off the slots

The shower manufacturer online states the model was May 2008 - presumably the work was done after this so post 2005 so presumably again should have been stated...

Yes it should have been stated on forms and the gas cooker needs documentation as well just for a straight swap of a free standung gas cooker it needs signing off by a suitably qualified installer..

Showers in particular the watts are very relevant to the size of wire so even if replacing like for like it cannot be too powerful for the existing cable.

I would get all your gas checked as well you can't be too careful.

sean1989_2

cattermole wrote: »

Yes it should have been stated on forms and the gas cooker needs documentation as well just for a straight swap of a free standung gas cooker it needs signing off by a suitably qualified installer..

Showers in particular the watts are very relevant to the size of wire so even if replacing like for like it cannot be too powerful for the existing cable.

I would get all your gas checked as well you can't be too careful.

That completly slipped my mind - the company that came out are registered as "joiners" so im thinking they may not be gas safe registered either...

the shower wire was 10mm i think the electrician said - but its fried

He has said that there is far too much output for what the CU can handle ( possible the reason everything went during a shower)